The Science of Scams

And just before we throw that story out there, I want to make sure that everybody that listens to us understands that we normally preface things by saying you can see danger or opportunity before it occurs.

Recently, our good friend Dan sent me a message where I had used the difference between life and death. Making this observation could be the difference between life and death. And his answer was, "You know, that's a little strong," because it's danger or opportunity. Yes, it's danger or opportunity, but this article will give you the example that it is life or death, that people can die when a scam goes off the deep end, Brian. Listen, this could happen to any of us or any of our parents.

So, this discussion stems from an incident on March 25th of this year, and it occurred in South Charleston, Ohio. South Charleston is a small village in Clark County, Ohio, maybe 1,700 people live there. So, you have William Brock, an 81-year-old Ohio man, and he's been charged in the fatal shooting of Latisha Hall, a 61-year-old Uber driver.

Brock believed that Hall, the Uber driver, was working with the scammer. Brock tells investigators that he shot Latisha outside his home on March 25th because he thought she was working with a man who had called him numerous times pretending to be an officer of the Clark County court. That person was actually a scammer who tells Brock that one of his family members is in jail with a significant cash bond.

The first calls were threatening enough, but then – and remember, this guy's 81 – there's a lot to unpack there. Gift of time and distance, hint hint. But the calls increased from "I'm an officer of the court" to, "Hey, we have your family member hostage, and this is a ransom demand, and you pay or we're going to kill them."

The scammer who called Brock told Brock that an Uber driver's on the way to a South Charleston home, and they're going to pick up the money. And guess what happens just a few minutes later? Miss Hall, the Uber driver, who has no role in the scam whatsoever, she shows up and is immediately confronted and subsequently shot and killed by Brock.

You have to set this into motion in your brain to understand why the felony murder rule is out there. The guy that put this entire sequence of events started it moving was not Brock, and it certainly wasn't Ms. Hall. This is a scammer that wanted money, and guess what? The approximate cause of those deaths is his lies, his subterfuge. That's what I wanted to start with.

Yeah, no, and it's such a powerful story, and it's kind of a version of what they call like virtual kidnapping, and you see that a lot too in foreign countries. So, when we travel to places, they warn us, "Hey, you might get a phone call in your hotel room saying, 'You know, we've got so-and-so, and you need to pay us.'" And again, this set into a chain of events.

Part of the reason why this story works so well and it's so powerful is, one, he's an older gentleman, so it sometimes can be a little bit easier to scam someone like that because they don't understand the technology, the complexity, or haven't heard of this stuff, maybe, before. So, the victim that they chose, and then co-opting someone without them even knowing they're being co-opted, with the Uber driver, and getting them involved, so now that suddenly becomes real.

Even if I'm on the phone and you're calling me saying, "Yeah, I've got your family member, and you need to pay," I could sit there and be like, "Okay, whatever, this is a scam, this is BS." Now, all of a sudden, a car shows up there to collect the money? This just got real. I mean, that adds so much to the story, and then, obviously, this person – the Uber driver – has no idea what's going on here and didn't know any of this stuff is happening. So, it's a powerful story. I put the link in the episode details for people to read and check out.

But I wanted to start with that one because it's a great example of some of the newer things that people are seeing out there and doing, and it's a great example of how you can really, one, like you said at the beginning, this scam could go from, "I'm trying to make a couple bucks," to someone ends up dead, which that person is responsible in some way. They're liable for this crime. I think they already know who it is. I know that it's still early on, can follow up, but they knew because they had to use their Uber account or something like that, so they're probably able to identify the person.

But the idea is, now someone's dead. This guy, Mr. Brock, he's still going to go to jail, probably for something. I mean, he killed someone now. So, without getting into that, I want to stick with the whole scam portion of how this stuff works and how this escalates.

Just to loosely define: scams are fraud-based tricks that people use to steal money through ransom, purchases, investments, donations, payments, and other means, which the scammers know are wrong, illegal, or unwarranted. Scammers generally target their victims online, via text, or over the phone. However they gain access, or in person, is how they do it. That's going to be dependent on what the situation is.

But just like the Nigerian Prince scam email, you still see that stuff 10 or 15 years later, or however long it's been going around, because it still works some of the time, right? The idea is, this stuff can stick around because sometimes it will keep working.

But there are a number of ways that scammers get access to their victims, but there are three big questions I brought up at the beginning that I want to discuss in detail:

1. Why do these work? What's the psychology behind them?
2. Who can fall for them? Who's more able to fall for scams? (We'll get to that one last because it's not really a trick question, but some people are more prone to it, but we're all very prone to falling for a scam.)

So, that's why I want to start with the first question: Why do these work? How can they be so easy to get over on people?

And you know what? Scams don't have to be clever or very detailed to work. You brought up the Nigerian Prince needs help, and you've got to remember the origin of that scam, Brian, was a letter. It was even before it was an email; it was a letter that came to homes, and people would show up at their local police station saying, "Is this real?" And they'd say, "No, throw it away."

So, it's always more about the victim than the scam. I just need to get the ball rolling and see how far your imagination is going to take us, and if I'm a good scammer, then I let you take lead on most of this. We're talking low-stake scams (gas money) to high-stake scams ("I'm in love with you, let's get married, sign over your credit card," or whatever). So, we have a spectrum, let's say, where some scammers don't do any research and they just cold call until they reach someone.

Some scams are so simple that on the phone, as they're starting up and you hear the noise in the background, the person pretends they can't hear you, and they go, "Hey, can you hear me?" And then they record you answering, "Yes," and then they use that to justify a future purpose.

We have to remember that entire households can be affected financially because one person answered that phone, one person answered the scam. High stakes again, the scammer is thinking high returns, and they get so serious that the scam can end up with death. We saw that, and Brian's going to put a couple more on the site that you can take a look and research that involved the death of one or more of the participants.

We have to understand that there's a chemical reaction; it affects my brain.

Yeah, just before you go to that, because you're kind of getting into it, but you said it's more about the victim than the scam. So, what do you mean by that? What can you elaborate on exactly what that means?

I have a secret, and as long as I shut my mouth, nobody else is ever going to know that secret. But if I share that secret with you, now it starts leaking out, right? So the idea is that when I call you, or confront you, or walk up to you, or send you a letter on the scam, it takes two to tango. We've heard that a billion times. I can't get there from here without you allowing me access. So the further you go on, "Tell me more. Okay, what, you know, I'd love to help," you're feeding those flames, Brian. If you just say, "Nope, not today," and shut it down, it's over, it's done.

Well, that's what, and I've heard someone talking about, probably a talk or interview, I can't remember who it was, but I really like the way they put it: it's kind of just how you put it, but it said, "You know, it takes two people to lie." It's one person to tell the lie and one person to believe it, or follow through with it, or go, "Okay, yeah, I'll accept that as an answer," or "I'll accept that standard." So, and that's so much of what we get into as well, just because it's, look, these things aren't just something that happens; everything you interact with, it interacts with you. So, you have some say in all of these situations. So you kind of went down what you meant by that, but I always like that takeaway that it takes two people to lie. It's another example. But sorry, I know you were getting into it.

No, no, so, Brian, to dovetail on exactly what you're bringing up, it affects my brain. What I mean is, the scam itself and the scammer are both trying to get access, and if they get access to my prefrontal cortex, they've got it made. We think with our prefrontal cortex. This is our the center of our rational brain, and we count on our prefrontal cortex to make good judgments and understand the long-term consequences of our actions or our decisions.

So, when you start messing with my emotions, or my family, or the time element, that makes me stupid. Anytime that we can create that time-distance gap in our prefrontal cortex, we are likely to make a conclusion, or draw a conclusion, rather, that's going to be wrong, or that's so quickly decided upon that somebody is going to make a mistake. And I don't mean that as just a math problem. I mean, like, your ATM, "Hey, listen, you got to put this on a credit card," or "Go buy a gift card and drop it in the mail." What?

When you hear the premise, when you're sitting in your own living room, Brian, it's not affecting your prefrontal cortex, right? So, we look at it and we go, "That's stupid. Who would fall for the Nigerian Prince?" Right? But, Brian, when you're in the moment, and you're on that call, and that person is trying to...

Yeah, build it up.

You know what? I can see how it happens. And we know that it does happen.

No, and you're... it's... there are different ways because when you get into access and it messing with our brain, especially when it's someone that we know does the introduction, right? Or there's some third party involved in this, even if it's unwitting, even if they don't know about it.

There was one from a few years back where these folks made a ton of money off of people, but they had an introduction from one of my friends who's—I won't mention the folks—but he's kind of well-known in sort of the fitness world and in training and personal training. And this was an introduction from a guy, actually, because this is the part you can read about online, the, I think his name is Mark something, but it was the trainer, he's a big celebrity trainer, personal trainer, and he did all the training for that, remember the movie 300 that came out? And it was like they trained all these guys together, they did this whole thing, and it became a big thing. But that guy was part of the scam; he got scammed by it. And it was something with, you know, this Hollywood insider thing, and you're going to come in and we'll pay you to do this, and all that.

Anyway, but he ended up even someone calling me because my who who gave my number is one of my buddies, like, "Oh, you got to get Brian, he would be perfect for something like this." You know what I mean? So, I'm talking to this person, and it just, the whole thing was so odd, and they did the setup, like, "Hey, I'm so-and-so's assistant, she's going to get on the call here shortly. I just want to make sure you know what this is about." I'm like, "Uh-huh, uh-huh." And then she comes on, and it was like these really direct, weird questions, and I was like, "Oh, this has 'scam' written all over it." I was like, "None of this makes sense. This isn't even how it's done."

It's funny because of the way they did it, the way they talked, and the questions they asked, because I talked to other guys I know that do, like, a lot of the—there are some big TV shows where they're the, they're in them, and they're former military, and so they're in them, and they do the technical advising, right? So, they do all like the, like the Seal Team shows where they train the guys how to, you know, move and shoot and act and look the part, you know what I mean? Like, be tactically sound.

So, I know some of the people that do that, and it was funny because I was talking to them, and even they were like, "It sounds odd, but also, you know, it's close enough where, like, kind of that's how Hollywood can be sometimes." And so, they were like, even them, they weren't doing the "oh, run away from it," they're like, "I don't know, just see what it is. You'll, you'll know. You're going to figure it out."

It was funny because even talking to them, so the insiders in that industry were like, "Well, it's not unheard of that something like that could happen, but it does sound odd." You know what I mean? So, it just, it was such a great example. It was sort of cognitively close enough to what they did. And you're just, I want to tie that back to everything you just brought with the brain. It really, really affects those catecholamines, meaning going, "Oh, I want this, I want to be a part of this," or "That sounds cool."

So, I'll show you a quick trick to gain access that your brain will accept through the prefrontal cortex. So, we're going right through the front of the brain; we don't have to go through the limbic system or, you know, titillate you with danger or opportunity, right?

So, the phone rings, and you look at the phone, and it comes from a government number. Now, you know, now you can choose any number and dupe off of it and do whatever you want to do. And you go, "Hello," and I go, "Hey, Brian, it's Dan." And you say, "Hey, Dan." And I go, "How you doing?" And you go, "Hey, fine." I'm in. I'm already in there, and now I have that trail going. So, even though you catch on right away and go, "Who is this? No, I don't..."

The idea of me starting off with your name in the familiar, as if there's no stress that's applied, that's the opening volley. And guess what? If they get that far with you, they pass it on to the experts. They pass it from an intermediary that just cold-called you and said, "Yeah, I got a couple of hits on this number," and then they sell those numbers. So, there are people out there that are refining this like advertisers would use a teaser to hook you on television.

So, we're not talking about every single scammer is this low-key, you know, "Hey, again, hey, can I get some gas money?" That's a scam; that's a low-level scam. But these people that are working in the higher levels, trust me, they've done their research. They've looked up your name, and they see the photos that you're posting, and then they're going to ask, "Yeah, well, hey, you know..." Or they find out about a birthday or a significant date.

And Brian, we're constantly on transmit, right? As humans, and specifically more so as humans trying to train other humans how to do in-person, face-to-face encounters, so we're subject to a lot of scammer... I don't know if that's a word, but...

Yeah, well, it is. We get hit a lot more than most people.

No, yeah, you're right on that, and it does, it does kind of fall into a number of different categories. So, that's kind of like the next sort of question on here is this, you know, what is the psychology kind of behind scams? And we're starting to get into that.

Well, I mean, you start with the neuroscience of it, but there is what, like, these can be sort of broken down into different elements or different categories on why they work. And so, some, because some are going to work more on others, you know what I mean? Versus some might work on you versus, "Well, we can't get Brian with those, but we can get him with these," because you know that he'd draw them in.

So, I've got a couple that I'll share with you and share with our audience, but I have to let you know, folks that are listening or watching us, that Brian plays the kora, and one of the things that he tells me all the time when he's rehearsing, kora is that, "Look, the song can change right in the middle to appeal to the audience." And that's what a good scammer will do. A good scammer will take you where you're leading them.

So, let's talk about a couple of these:

• Family obligation: "Hey, Jimmy can't post bail without your grandma, and you don't want him to be in there over the weekend or over a holiday or whatever else." Okay, so now family obligation, that pulls at a certain amount of people, and I'll tell you what, in different cultures — culture is context — that might be a very, very important string on which to pull.
• Then we have fear: "Look, we have your family member. Pay up, or we're going to shank them like a prison movie," right?
• A sense of urgency: "Look, this ship sails in 25 minutes. You run down and buy a gift card and hand it over to the Uber driver, or we're out of here."
• Excitement: "Look, you won! All you got to do is cover the shipping and handling, and we're going to send you your cut of the profits." That one still goes on, and people are constantly calling police agencies and saying, "Hey, we just got this from a credible source in the mail." And remember that there are legal implications if you put stuff through the mail, and they say "Publishers Clearing House." Well, Publishers Clearing House is a legitimate thing, but guess how many scammers take a look at that and get real close to Publishers Clearing House? Right? That's one of the excitement ones.
• And then finally, I categorize it in five: Guilt. "Look, now I've got a picture of your dick, and you thought you were sexting with a young girl or boy, or whatever, the watermelon. But now that I've got it, I have your list of friends, and I'm going to tell every one of your classmates, and I'm going to send them a picture of your dick. Now, you can pay me."

That one alone, Brian, has resulted in so many deaths since January that it's remarkable, and they're targeting high-school-age kids, mostly boys.

Yeah, and those boys are very, very susceptible.

So, here, this is a perfect example. Each of these impairs the rational thinking center of my brain. So, my prefrontal cortex is now inhibited. Additionally, the emotions that these messages evoke, plus now a time element, guess what? I don't have the time to use the gift of time and distance, so I'm unlikely to come up with a good evaluation of the likely outcomes, the options, or assess the situation objectively, and that's where the problem is.

So, if I drive too fast on a dirt road and outrun my headlights, I'm liable to hit a tree. And that's exactly what they're going for here. The tree, low-level tree, "Pay me the money," and I might keep using you. The high level is, I could hit that tree, airbag didn't deploy, and we're all dead. And that's the way we have to think of these. This is a high-risk, high-return game.

And the time element is always huge. And that's just, but that's a, that's a, you know, consistent sales tactic you'll see. There are tons of products out there, you know, you go, "Oh, we're having the sale right now, it's only going on for this long," and they have the countdown timer on their website, and you're like, "Okay, oh, I better, I better get it now."

No, but it's just, the time element really increases the sense of urgency, and the family actually enhances all of those other elements too, right? I mean, all of it...

Let me, let me hit on the temporal one time, Brian. So, when we're talking about time elements, I'll give you two examples. One, I grew up in an environment where Kmart was a thing, and when you went to Kmart, you got good quality, low-price stuff, and they had the Blue Light Special. You could only get this deal when that blue light was on, so that added to the mystique and the intrigue and the fun of getting that deal.

Yeah, well, I'll take it to the other end. There were a couple of coppers flying around Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they looked down and saw a Krispy Kreme that was in their jurisdiction, and the light came on for the hot fresh donuts. So, those cops conspired up there to land in the parking lot and run over and get them some free hot donuts.

Do you see how our prefrontal cortex in both was inhibited? Low-level Blue Light Special, I probably don't need those extra underwear, but I'm going to get them, and you know, the Greg-ism, "One day all underwear will be brown." And then we've got the other thing, the Krispy Kreme, where these guys are flying around in a helo and risking their very livelihood, they're risking their job, Brian, they're taking themselves out of the role because, guess what? It's a donut. But that's what happens when our prefrontal cortex isn't driving the ship. That's what happens when we see this opportunity, we go, "I got donuts, sounds pretty good right now."

So, I want to make sure that we all understand that there's a scale, and that scale, that continuum, is always in motion. So, when we talk about the gift of time and distance, giving yourself a little more distance from the situation, which is also a metaphor, it's giving yourself more time and giving yourself more physical distance, guess what? It doesn't seem that intriguing or alluring anymore, and now we're making better decisions. That's the key. The key is that we give ourselves more time, go back to the prefrontal cortex, and we go, "No, I really don't need to do this. What are some of the long-term consequences that'll affect this short-term gratification?" And we don't do that enough as humans because we're so, we repeat behaviors so often that we don't stop and think, "What are the likely outcomes?"

Yeah, and the other, the other ones are, you know, the time element, but then also if you're in an area, like this was why, you know, to bring up gas stations again, when someone comes up walking or someone comes up to you to ask for money or something like that, and you, you can't go anywhere. I mean, because you're literally sitting there filling your car up with gas. Like, you're not, like, you're, you're locked in that position. You're not going. You're just a sitting duck at that point, waiting, and someone can come up. And that's why those areas are always frequented by people because you, you can't, they know once that hose comes off, goes into your car, whatever, once it, once you start filling up, like, you're not going anywhere for a while.

A mechanic for many years.

So, the idea, the idea being, like, with all of these, we, we can all fall victim to them. And, and I look at it too, is, is even when I'm, you know, I need, I need to co-opt the insurgent, you know, here at home to help me with something in the yard or whatever, like, I'm like, "Alright, I gotta, I gotta put something together to entice her to come out and do this," you know, whatever it is. And so, I'm basically doing the same thing. I'm, I'm creating a scam to get her to either, you know, come out and help me or do something first or work on this project around the house before she goes out with her friends or something like that.

So, when I, and the reason why I'm bringing those up, is when I look at it that way, it kind of helps me identify these, these scams a little bit easier. And, and again, I use the term scam for, for a lot of things. It could be something so low-level, someone just trying to get in front, someone trying to get to the front of the line at the coffee shop or something like that.

Whatever advantage. Yes, and that's what it is. And even sometimes if they're legitimate and they're running late or something like that, they still got to bamboozle you to kind of get in front of everyone. So, those elements are going to be... handicap parking. Okay, some people use the handicap parking sticker that they, you know, ill-gotten sticker to gain an advantage and park closer, you know?

And we haven't entered into karma, that level of science, because the only real science is a horoscope, right? But the idea is that when you take a look at it objectively, they don't pass the smell test, do they? Because after a while, those things are going to bite back, and sooner or later, like, people don't understand what we mean by that. If you allow that slippery slope to start in your life, you'll be out of tune, out of sync with other patterns that start developing, and you'll start either falling for them or not trusting anybody. So, that's why you have to be in tune. That's why you have to be sympatico with these.

So, when you see somebody that really needs a handout, "Hey, can I have a cigarette?" You get what I'm trying to say? You know the difference between...

Right, that, that's a, that's a good point, and, and sometimes, you know, the, the language sort of that, that we use, or people use for this stuff. And that's why, you know, I use the term scam. So, you know, I use it a lot because I don't mean it as something even that deliberate sometimes, or, or, or something that's serious. You know, I just lose as, look, anytime someone's trying to get over on someone, you're scamming them, right?

But, but one of the things that, that, you know, people do when they're, when they're, when they kind of get someone and they get that victim, they'll, they, they'll use a certain type of language and they'll legitimize sort of their concerns about something. You know, it's the same thing, it's like with, with, you know, anytime during anytime there's elections going on, you see political ads. Political ads are the best because it's like you could just pick apart all these elements. You're like, they'll bring up anything, and I don't care who it is, they will use whatever they can, and it's a scam, it's a form of another one. It's like I'm trying to play on your fears, right? And legitimize your concerns, and then I'm going to point you at who the enemy is, and now you have no other option. Like, "Oh, God, this makes sense. We, we must stop that." And it's like, "Alright, like, what do we, is, is that really what's going on?"

And, and, you know, everyone does that, but it's such a great example of, of all of those advertisements, because, you know, because they're really, really trying to win you over to take action, to, to do something. So, so they're actually trying to change your behavior or promote that behavior or get you to literally go to a poll physically and vote for someone. I mean, so, so there, it's such a powerful example of it that, that, you know, even when it's just politics, just how it is. But when you look at it that way, it kind of, again, those things help me identify other situations where someone's just trying to sell me a line of crap that I, that I don't need. You know, it's the, it's the classic, you know, used car, like, "Hey, now let's talk about rustproofing. You're going to want to get this thing." It's like, "Wait, wait a minute, what are you, what are you talking about here?" So, I, I just, those are, those are a couple other elements that, you know, I wanted to kind of add into, to, when we talk about the psychology behind scams. It's, it's really, they will legitimize some concern that is a completely irrational concern that you may have.

And so, that's the point. You and I, when we're together, constantly invoke the movie Scrooged with Bill Murray. Acid rain, drive-by shootings, the apocalypse, and the explosions and everything, and you know what? You're eating the popcorn, man, you can't help but watch. Again, that's a form of access. Now, that would be a psychological, sociological form of access: "Hey, it's great for our community." Physiological form of access: "Hey, you can look so many years younger, Brian, with this, with this balm that I make from a seashell." Right? Those are scams that are physiologically based. And then the psychologically based, "Acid rain!" These things are...

Right, and, and guess what? That's fear. Go back to each of those; it goes right back to fear. Fear is one of the best motivators, and anything, it's like you said, right at the beginning, it bypasses that prefrontal cortex. You're going right to your limbic system, and now I'm in survival mode. And once you get someone in that survival mode, those decisions become very binary, right? So, I don't, I don't, I don't create other options for myself. I go, "Yes or no," or "I need to flee," or "I need to fight." "I need to buy this thing," or "I need to get on board," or "I need to run away." I mean, that, that, that's the idea.

It comes down to: So, who then, you know, who can fall for scams? And I know that's such a great question. Technically, anyone, but there is actually some good research out there on scammers target and why.

So, I will tell you this, I will give you a story from growing up as a copper, and I mean maturing as a copper. The one thing that I found out about our agency in Michigan is that if you sat at this front desk, you were looking at the rest of the police station that was in front of you. All of the traffic bureau and records were behind you, were above you. And then you had the door on the left that came in from the parking lot and the courts, and, you know, sort of the busiest area. And then the right-hand door, beautiful, wonderful big doors that were never used. They were almost never unlocked, and they led out to a place where there was a flagpole and some a memoriam, and there were no parking spots. The street outside was, you know, going fast and furious, so nobody ever pulled over there and came in those doors. It was more the architect wanted it for a photo, you know, it was a beautiful photo opportunity.

So, we learned fast, anybody that came in from those doors, something was wrong with that person, and we started calling them the "96 door," the "nut door." And I hate to use those terms, but, you know, you got to understand, 40 years ago that was de rigueur. That's how things happened. And so, I can remember many times being in the station or working the front desk that the scrum started when somebody came in that door, and the nut sandwich was in full bloom, right? So, even in area, and Stephen King has made a billion dollars doing that, right? Picking out the car or the business or the hotel that was evil and that had those things.

So, I would tell you that, that when you take a look at that, the story I'm trying to tell here is that person is somehow different, and they chose that door, even though right over here was the best door, and you can see it from there, you can see a parking lot, and it's safe and you can walk up. So, who can fall for scams? That person.

And what do I mean by that? Do I mean that they're sub-intellectual? No. But what does Gallup say? Gallup says that adults with no college education are twice as likely as college grads to be victimized in the past year. There was a whole bunch, 21 November 2023 is a Gallup story I'm citing, folks that want to look that up. And households earning less than $50,000 a year are about twice as likely as middle-income people to be scammed. And young adults have the highest overall rate of household victimization. In other words, they're the one that the scammers pick on, rather than anybody in the house.

So, think about just those little data points for just a minute before we go any further. So, what are we trying to say? We're trying to say, "Look, if you're earning less money, you're always on the lookout for opportunity," which means that scams might be more prevalent in your world, not that you're dumber. And look, college education generally means that you've traveled more, you've experienced more things with other people. You're not constantly in that defensive mode where you're going around trying not to get robbed, trying, right? That you're, that you're working that job, "Oh my God, I got to have two jobs." What does that mean? That means your prefrontal cortex is already inhibited. And the youngest, they're just less experienced.

So, if we look at Gallup's numbers, I would say that it's a cross-section of our society that's needy. They need more, and they don't have the type of time to make better decisions or draw more reasonable conclusions. And trust me, you don't think that a scammer is going to research Gallup? Gallup regularly asks Americans how often they worry about types of crimes, right? And so, being tripped by a scammer is, or sending money to them, or providing access to a financial account—all the stuff that goes on with scams—is the second highest victimization concern. Only identity theft ranks higher than scams. So, that means that it's on your mind all the time.

But Brian, you and I could take a small, low-level, low-stake scam and still make it through the day. But what about one of those people that doesn't have that high-functioning job with a good income that's coming in? How do you walk back in and tell your wife or significant other that you sold the cow for these three magic beans? Right? I mean, where do you think...

That's great. The bean story is a huge example of this, I think.

No, and that, that's, that's a great one. It's a great example. But, and, and I would even say, you know, because you, you, like you said, "If I'm not making as much money, I'm always on the lookout for opportunity," right? I'm always trying to, like, get ahead or do something, right? But on the opposite end of that spectrum, that's true as well. You know, you go to, like, very, very wealthy people, or who were maybe in finance or whatever, we were constantly looking for an insight, constantly looking for that edge, constantly looking for something else.

Well, why do you think Bernie Madoff was able to fool so many people with his Ponzi scheme, and why those things continue to work? And how many, how many of these—I think someone did a story on it too—it was like, "You know, when Forbes has their list of like '30 Under 30,' or these billionaires or whatever," and it, and within 10 years, half of them, like half of the people that they had named is, "Wow, look at these people creating all this stuff," it was all fraud. It was all, I mean, literally half of them are all going to jail because it was all a BS scheme. And, and that's, that's the thing is that it, it, it, it, you're more susceptible there as well because you do, you're in that world going, "Any one of these things could take off and be the next billion-dollar company. I want to make sure I'm getting in there. I want to be part of this." It's, it's the same, it's almost like the same mechanism on two opposite ends of the socioeconomic spectrum because it's how we're sort of wired, you know what I'm saying?

So, let's use science to try to prove that, Brian. So, the majority of people that experience property theft, they have their home vandalized or broken into, okay? They're going to report it. The people that are victims of scams, less than 30% of them ever report it to police. Why? Well, there's an ego thing that's there too, right? You're going, "Oh my God, I don't want anybody to find out I'm the stupid one."

Now, let's take a look at a demographic also from the Gallup poll that said the states hit hardest by the investment scams were Nevada, California, Washington, Florida, and Hawaii. How much does it take to live and thrive in Hawaii? Same thing with Florida, being on the water. Look at what Nevada and California have: both of them have gaming, and they have big, beautiful homes or very, very low-economic rural areas that go around.

So, I have to scam what? You remember the old saying from the world's most effective and efficient bank robber back in the day? What did he say, why do you rob banks? And he said, "That's where the money is." So, the idea is, you understand and I understand that they're not going to go for everybody. Like, squatting in a house is a completely different crime. We're talking about somebody that's risking mail fraud and criminal fraud charges and all these other things, but they're not going to do that for enough money for the gas. That's that low level that you don't have to worry about. They're going to do that because they need your car, they need your identity, they need your house, or your money.

And they're willing to put in the game, they were the time to play the game, and you have to be a willing participant. So, if they find that you're not, they have to do the nudge. And what's the nudge? The nudge is, "Now I'm going to appeal to that greed," or "I'm going to appeal to that family," or "I'm going to say, 'Listen, I have to threaten you at this point to tell you you're in it too far. I'll go to the whatever.'" And those things work. How do I know they work? 30% or less people report them to the coppers, Brian. It would be a different number, I really feel it would.

No, yeah, that, that's, that's a great point. A lot of people don't want to report that stuff. They don't want to, you know, admit that they were, they were, they were scammed. And we see stuff like that all the time. That's why a lot of those scams continue to work, and that's why some people get away with them and continue to do them because no one reports it. They're embarrassed. You know, they, they got, got taken advantage of, and no one, no one likes that, that feeling obviously. And so, so it's, you know, not going to want to tell anyone about it, even though everyone falls for this stuff, even though we, we all do. I, we fall for our own scams sometimes that we create in our heads. You know what I'm saying?

That's so true. My God, start believing in our own, our own BS sometimes. And, you know, we, we want to, you know, people, people want to, want to believe. I know you, you included in there too, and I, I'll put a link to, to an article, but one of my favorite ones is Catch Me If You Can, the Frank Abagnale guy, who, you know, who, who made a living off of lying about lying. Like, he only committed a few crimes a long time ago, and he turned, he just, he lied constantly about everything that he did, and then they turned it into a movie, and then he was able to continue that lie over decades.

And so, I, I'll include the link in the episode details, but the idea is, people went back, a couple people said, "Wait a minute, this is, this sounds like BS," and they went back and looked at everything that he said he did, compared it to his prison records and what was known, and it was all BS. Even my, my brother when he was in college and he was going through taking some finance courses and stuff, and he, their, their school paid him to come out and talk about what he did. And it was, they did, you know, years later, they were like, "Wow, this is all BS." He kept it going. He's kept it going for decades, on all BS because that's the thing is, like, if a scammer is a scammer, we've all met someone before who's constantly trying to scheme and scam. That's who they are. You know, if they're continuing through life that way, they're not going to suddenly change. And that was his whole story, he's like, "Oh, well, I've changed. I did this back then between these years, and, you know, it was wrong." And it's like, "No, you're just continuing, you're continuing the story."

It's become a lifestyle. It has modified you as much as you've modified it. It really is. And, and, you know, like we, we keep saying, we can all fall victim to this because one, it goes back, well, my favorite is the line from the X-Files, remember, "People, people want to believe," right? We, we want to, we want to believe, and we want to not just believe you and what your story is, we want to believe that we've got some insight and some knowledge that's going to gain us some sort of advantage.

Or the other end, "Oh my gosh, I need to help this person," right? I, I want to, I want to, you know, that's, that's the whole nonprofit world is, is filled with fraudulent scams that, that people are doing. You know, "Donate money, a couple bucks here." You know, that you got to be really careful on all of those because if you don't know about that organization, do not give them your money. You know, because you don't know what's going on, and there's a lot of those folks out there that are just, just doing it to make some money and, and, and do whatever. But, but you're tugging on the heartstrings of people who are really well-intentioned.

No, and let's talk about that briefly. Look, all my research showed that in investment scams alone, it's just under $4 billion a year. So, if we understand that less than 30% of those are reported, we just take the three, yeah, multiply that more, you get what I'm trying to say? So, that's, that's a $12 billion just in investment scams. So, how much do scams cost us? They cost us a lot, and, and they become part of society.

So, William Thompson, long time before Frank Abagnale, was the one that gave rise to the term "confidence man." He would con, a con man or con woman was gaining your confidence with upper-class people, insinuating yourself and all the things that happened, and then, "By the way, hey, let me borrow that vase, or that chifferobe, or that beautiful watch of yours, or I need a couple of bucks, and I'll be right back." And then they wouldn't. And then the rich people would go, "Well, it's a minor league loss, I'm not going to report it." And guess what? William Thompson was high on the hog for a good long time. So, to get something named after you, like Ponzi, a guy, P, he's a real person. So, so we don't sometimes think about how important that is.

And then you get somebody like Silicon Valley, Stanford University, Elizabeth Holmes. She founded Theranos, right? Comes up with this new blood test, "Okay, and I'll revolutionize everything!" And then all of a sudden, when you take a look at it, she's a billionaire, and she's a criminal. It was all fraudulent. There was no, you know, when people just scratched the surface, but guess what, Brian, that greed made me want to believe.

So, I think, you know, one end of the spectrum and the other, I think fear and greed are the ones that motivate us most. And when we don't have that gift of time and distance, we're more apt to fall for them.

And that's why I brought up the sort of opposite end of that socioeconomic spectrum. Like, this isn't just your Nana falling for the Nigerian Prince scheme over email. This is, these are people that are thinking they're gaining some insight. So, what did she do? She had access to all the right people. She could speak intelligently enough to people who weren't experts in that area. And then, you'd see her, she started dressing like Steve Jobs. She had the black turtleneck sweater and had that weird affect in her voice that was not natural, and she would do all... and it was all this image. She created this...

Even recently, I was tell you, there someone, someone interviewed her again. I mean, this is after, obviously, she's been found out, she's in jail, or I think released, I can't remember. But the writer, the writer for this article, got slammed because they fell for it. They got in, like, they, they kind of wrote up this like, this, this piece that was very flattering to her, and was almost like, "Oh, we should have some sympathy for this person." It's like, "You got duped, man, like, you..."

Fell for it, just like everybody. And it still... it's bad. That's still a fraud because you're gaining an advantage. And you know what? We have to understand that there are laws that are out there. So, if you feel like you're a victim, make sure you do that. Brian and I aren't into the TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) of that, but I will tell you that everybody plays into it.

Give me an example. Pretty Woman. Can't think of the actress to save my ass. Julia Roberts. She was in so many different films. And Julia, don't hate me for this, you text me often. But Pretty Woman, a hooker that is going to, you know, make it good. And the idea is that everything that was about that show was a falsity. I've known hookers my entire adult life, professionally and personally, and the idea is it's a bad situation that they're trying to get out of. There was a standing order in Detroit that if you took one female prostitute, and non-attribution, that they'd give you time off without pay because she had so many diseases and smelled so bad. That poor woman, that was all the lifestyle that she knew.

So, we portray something, and then all of a sudden that gives it legitimacy. And that's how a scam works. That Nigerian Prince understood that, "Hey, you don't understand, man, I got the shaft," right? And now all of a sudden, you're going, "Tell me more." And then, "You know, I kind of got screwed on this, and the only thing I can think of is maybe if you help me out, we can both be good."

And now that's the parking lot scam, Brian, where, "Look, hey, I think I found a diamond ring in the parking lot," and the other person looks at it and goes, "Hey, that's my ring!" "Oh, well, this is what we'll do: we'll both put money in this envelope, Brian."

Back in the day—and I apologize for using dated terms; I don't know what the current DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) is—but "Gypsy camps," we were in Hungary, and while we were building the observation towers for our course there for the Hungarian Special Forces, the people came in cars and were taking the wood and the nails out of our towers so we couldn't climb up in them because they needed something to sell. So, everybody is always in motion, and that's what we have to understand is, if you're spinning just to get to work and do your thing, comb your kids' hair and do that, you're probably on the right track. But there's somebody that's looking and living in those margins, Brian, and they see an advantage. And if they can work into that advantage, "Hey, do you mind dropping me off here?" "Hey, do you do that coming up to the window?" "Hey, I'll wash your window for whatever." Okay, you've got to be on scam alert in your brain.

And you know who? We've got a friend that is always on scam alert and has a lot of good background information on this, if you know who I'm talking about.

What's that, the...

Our Andy Brown. Andy Brown is a good guy that's got a lot of stuff on his site about getting scammed like this in... wait, Andy Brown is... wait, he wrote no, Andy Murphy from SKAR. Andy Murphy. Oh my God, Andy is never going to... And Brown. Brian, not responding. Air Force. Air Force. Active shooter.

No, no, Andy, yeah, yeah. No, he, he's, he's, he's got a lot of, I make mistakes, great stuff on there where he talks about TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) and different things you can do and how to help with deny access, especially with kids too, and cell phones, and even some of the stories you were talking about at the beginning. And with, with all of these, you know, you, you're getting into, the way I, the way I look at, at something like this is, is it's, it's part of the human condition of, of why we fall into these things. It's mostly because either we want to help or we have all these different reasons, right? Whether it's greed, it's personal gain, it's, it's, I want to help someone out. I have, you know, Nana who falls for everything because she thinks everyone's the sweetest person on the face of the earth, right? And that's what we fall into.

And I use, and this why I kind of brought up at the beginning, is when I use, you know, "Hey, this is a scam," it's not necessarily, when I use that term, meaning like, "Okay, this is some big elaborate scheme." It's just someone's trying to get one over on me, and the, the sooner you can realize that, because it's about, it's really about boundaries, right? If, if I, if I allow access or if I don't set boundaries with people, someone's going to try to push those boundaries. Someone's going to test them. Someone's going to, you know, that, that, that's how people gain access to me.

And so, if I look at it from, "Who do I want to allow access?" it's like, "Well, where are these boundaries going to be with this individual?" I mean, you know, it's the, it's the, the, the guy walking up at the gas station to ask for a couple bucks when you're sitting at the car. When I, you know, that's why it's all about time and distance. As they, if once they make eye contact with me and start walking over, you know, I can go, "Eh, that's close enough right there," right before they ever take another step because now I'm saying, "No, no, no, you're, you're not controlling the situation anymore. You're taking back the narrative," at least, "or we're at least on equal footing here." You know what I'm saying? I'm not letting you get that advantage.

And so, so when, when, you know, that's why we reiterate the time and distance and how big of a factor that plays, and this is such a great example of one. I mean, you go back to the story from the beginning, this 81-year-old guy, he, he's just like, "Okay, you've got my family member, what's going on?" He's immediately gone into like, "There's something happening here." He's immediately scared. Now, there's someone showing up at my house in his own driveway, coming up to his front door, and you could tell, if you read through the articles and what happened, it's, it's, I mean, it's so obvious that this guy is just, he's trying to figure out what's going on. He's scared because he's like talking, "Who the hell are you? Give me your phone." Shoots her once, then keeps talking and shoots again. Like, and imagine you show up, because he...

The story... yeah, and here's the thing, we could talk to the defense attorney on that. Exactly. And Ms. Hall didn't need to die, and we're sorry she was part of the scam. But the entire idea is that Brock used his pistol to gain information because he thought a family member was in peril. "I have kidnapped this family member, you have the..." And I mean, if you can't see that, we're not talking of premeditated murder here. We're, we're talking that, that, yes, a person died, but there's so many mitigating factors here.

And I'll give you this too, Brian, we always have to look at the historic perspective. Do you understand that we used to have things that you could order, and they would be delivered cash on delivery, that you paid the postman when he showed up? Can you imagine that nowadays? Talk about the robberies and homicides! The other thing is, go around in your neighborhood—this is just like the feral cats and the looking at shopping carts—look for a sign on an old person's home in your neighborhood that says "No Solicitors."

What does that mean? That in the old days, people used to come up and knock on your door, that's how they gained access. Avon, to sell a vacuum, to sell you candy, to get their kids' football team jersey—all of those things happened, to the point that old people put up "No Solicitors" because I didn't want to have to deal with your scam at my front door. So now, because technology is, you know, comes in every aspect of our lives, the scammers just got smarter. They, they, they got more efficient, let's say.

Yeah, they're, well, they're always going to be one step ahead of the curve, obviously. You know, that's the whole thing is why a lot of times we don't get into the TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) because they change so frequently. And you know, they're always going to be ahead of it.

So, yeah, you know, I, I think we, we kind of covered a lot, and, and some of the different, some of the different reasons sort of why we fall into these are always because they're fascinating to me because they work. They work because we're human beings, and they work on, you know, I don't care who you are, where you're at, you're, you're so susceptible to these things. And so, the more you can recognize what a scam is, whether it's the, you know, throw in, you know, "Round up at the cash register to donate money to this cause." It's like, "I don't know anything about that cause," you know, "I really don't. Like, I'm not doing that. I'm sorry." Like, I, like, I have my things that I put my time in my money towards, and that's what I support. Like, I don't have to do that in every one of these situations. And it's like you, you, it's because it could be a scam, and they make it so easy all the time.

It's everywhere. Yeah.

So, so it's like, "Oh, it's just another click. It's just none of this." And it's like, "No, man, I'm, I got to, got to set that boundary," because, you know, the better you get at that, I mean, the better you get at, at recognizing them, no matter where you're at, you know what I mean? How many times you're like, "Alright, we see something a mile away," and you're like, "Yeah, I know where this is going," but, "I don't think so." And, and so you can, you can sort of get better at that. And, you know, just realizing how much it affects our psychology and, and just the catecholamines in our brain, how they're kicking during any of these situations. And then once I put that, that, you know, I, I lessen that time or that distance, man, I get, I get dumb pretty quick.

Or, you know, and same, which is the story from the beginning that, you know, he went very primal very quickly, and given the context of the situation, it's completely understandable why he did. He is not an irrational human being. What he, he was in the moment, thought, believed all of that to be true. So, what would you have done? Who wouldn't have then grabbed this person and put a gun to... 81 years of his life doing the right thing, right? And even the Uber driver, she's 61 years old, she's been around, she knows the game, but she didn't understand the game when somebody says, "Yeah, just go to this address." So, you're co-opting somebody else in the normal day-to-day, Brian, that's what makes it easy. That access is so critical. And, and remember, folks, we're the ones that allow it. That's what we're trying to get across here.

We participate. Yeah, that's what I always get across to the Insurgent too. I'm like, "Stranger danger is BS." Like, it's going to be your friend that, you know, goes, "Hey, you want to get drunk and high?" It's going to be your buddy. It's not like it's one of your own. There's no, you know, the creepy van where someone runs out and grabs a kid, happens like once, once a year or something, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's, it's, it's someone you know. So, that's the idea too, and, and, and so, same thing with with scams.

But, we covered a lot, Greg. I would also add to anyone, check out The Secure Dad Podcast. He does a lot of great stuff, especially for families and kids, and to know how people are kind of like gaining access through different areas or apps or things that, like, you wouldn't think of, that clearly weren't designed for that. But he, he, he'll go in and show you, be like, "Hey, you got to take a look at this because, you know, people can access this way even if you have these settings and now your kid's talking to someone thinking that they're just another kid on TikTok or something like that." So, he's really good at that stuff because he brings in a whole bunch of experts and talks to them too. So, shout out to Andy Murphy and shout out to Andy Brown too. We haven't actually talked...

So now that I've conflated him... I love Andy Brown, he's such a wonderful guy, and I actually wrote down on my yellow pad right here, I wrote down "Andy Brown," I put two asterisks, "Secure Dad." So, I was hooked from the very beginning when I was writing my mind, you scam. This is what I mean, you scammed yourself. I believed it. Anybody that wants to see physiology, go back to the point where Brian just didn't say anything, and I was like, "Yeah, buddy, Andy Brown," and Brian said nothing. Again, my histamine level was at like 270. I was beet red. I could lead the sleigh on Christmas because I believed it. I was like, "Oh God, I didn't know where you're going with that." I was like, "Where are you going with this?"

Well, you, how often do you do that when you're with me though? Okay, I mean that's a pretty common error with me because I'm thinking one thing, and Brian's like, "No, that was Da Vinci."

Great, Greg is constantly scamming himself. No, I know this. I was there. I fell for me again, Greg. That happened in 1872. That's perfect. Well, I, I'll go on LinkedIn and apologize to both of those idiots, and we love them. Yeah.

Yeah, he does, yeah, there he's, well, he's laughing the hardest at it too. So, that's good. Alright, well, thanks everyone for tuning in. Check out the episode details for those stories, and then we'll have some more on Patreon as well to check out. But we thank you all for tuning in, for listening and giving us your time, and we hope you learn something. And don't forget that training changes behavior.