L.O.G. 229 People want their say not their way.

L.O.G. 229 People want their say not their way.

All right, Greg, we'll go ahead and get started. If you have to get up to defend yourself against the bear you have roaming around there, just feel free to do that. It's daylight, so I'm relatively safe. About 2:40, 02:40 hours, is when the bear is the most active, which is generally a good sleeping time for your rim bear. Bears don't rim. Well, they hibernate. Picture, you know, was it John Candy, Great Outdoors? You know that kind of situation right now going on.

Well, Shelly's about had it. So what I'm afraid is Shelly's gonna go out and fistfight the bear.

Yeah, I could see she would do that. Exactly.

Today's topic du jour, I think we want to jump into. We get some questions about this, actually some great questions. But, you know, one of the things that we say, kind of one of our sort of guiding principles, again, we talked about it in other podcast episodes, just not specifically on this for an entire episode. But I want to jump into, you know, we like to teach that most people, people want their say, not their way. And it's kind of an interesting, you know, it's a way to kind of boil down some very complex human interactions, both psychologically, sociologically, between humans, to that simple statement of, "Most people want their say, not their way."

And then what we'll get to eventually too, is we tack on top of that, so kind of like a use of that is then, "Is this person acting up, or are they acting out?" Because those are kind of two different things and they tie together and we'll get into that. But why don't... That's great. Do you want to start with giving what you mean by "people want their say, not their way"? And then I'll kind of add to that too, because I've got some other things to add about it. But if you want to start with that, and then we'll go back and forth on that, I think...

So, there's a hundred textbook definitions about different psychological stances, everything else. And there's a whole bunch of platitudes that are out there that are meaningless. So, in class, I wouldn't say, you know, point to a student and go, "Remember 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star'," because at the end of "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star," there's not a story where we all sit down and go, "My God, that's the most profound way of living my life." And we remember. Some people get it in books. Some people hear it from others on LinkedIn about stoicism and they all go off, "John Boyd, what would John do? Or what would John Boyd do?"

Exactly. So "the say, not the way" is the way that we use to winnow down something that's nebulous, huge in psychology and sociology, to make it a usable chunk. So when a person's walking along, they can look at somebody and use it as a mental checklist, size them up.

So we walk into a room and there's a person being louder than anybody else, right? And we're not sure if they're loud because they're the speaker, loud because they're the comedian in the bar, or loud because they're happy or unhappy with somebody. "Hey, everybody, we're going to sing Happy Birthday!" So right away in that moment, I have to take a knee mentally and take a look at this and say, "Okay, is this person wanting their say, or are they wanting their way?"

And a person that's wanting their way, okay, I can placate them. "Hey, listen, my food is cold." "You know what, you're right. Let me warm that up for you, or get you a new one." A person that wants their say, "Well, I need to tell you, I waited too long in line, I paid too much for my meal, and I'm not happy with it." "Well, I'm sorry about that, sir, I can fix that too." Danger Collision Course when a person wants their say and their way. And that's the person that gets up and goes, "I've had enough!" flips the table in front of you and now goes, you know, on acting out all of the different, like it's like a pantomime of their complaint.

Yeah, and so what happens that we're lucky about is that when people want to say, I know that I can take an off-ramp and fix that. Okay? When people want their way, I know I can take an off-ramp and fix that. But Brian, when those two collude, I'm going to have a mess on my hands if I act first and act fast.

So that's... And I kind of want to not reel it back, but to stop right there for a minute, because I want to further sort of define a little bit behind why people want to have their say. And I always give the social media example, it's a great one, right? Sure. What happens? People get in arguments on there, people comment on there. Like everyone gets to have their say on there, whether you know anything about the topic being discussed or not. Right? You get... It does not matter anymore.

Doesn't matter.

Right. You get to, you get to have that. And so that's sort of a psychological and sociological imperative, right? I have to feel... And I don't necessarily need to get my way, but I need you to know that this is how I feel. This is a big... I have an opinion. Well, it's like, and this is why, like, politics is so powerful and prevalent, because everyone gets to have an opinion, because we're all in this. Like, I get a vote, you get a vote. Greg, your vote doesn't matter more than mine. Maybe you have more knowledge on that topic, and your opinion might be more...

You and I are equal.

Yeah, we're equal. So then we all get to have our say in it, which is we're part of the society, right? So I use that as an example of how everyone talks about it all the time. And you get to... And but what I'm getting at too, is a lot of times I just want to feel heard. I want to feel like I had my say.

I've used the example before, probably on here too. I, you know, take my wife out to a really expensive dinner. We don't go out much, like we had to get a babysitter, we had to do all these, take all these steps and make sure we had time and, you know, rush. And then, you know, my food's messed up. Like, "Hey, like that bothers me, man. That really upsets me. I put a lot of effort into this." But now how that goes is how the restaurant handles it. Right? And but I'm going to want to say, like, "Hey, look, this is the problem, this is what it is," you know, and kind of start there. I have to get it off my chest. And I have to do that psychologically. I have to vent that out, otherwise it just stays bottled up and it and it keeps going. Right?

But this is why the Mobius loop of sentient AI and social media are so potentially dangerous. And that's not where we're going today. But I will tell you this, it's important for you sociologically to get out of your cave and walk across to your neighbor's house and get to meet the neighbors around you, okay? It's important that they like you enough to tell you that your house is on fire, that somebody's burglarizing it. And it's important that you like them enough that if you see them laying down in the living room on the floor for hours at a time, that you might call 911. Social media is exactly opposite. Social media, you don't give a [expletive] about anybody, but you care about the number of likes that you get, so you're willing to change your opinion and modify and go by that wavelength.

So, so what does that mean? Well, an editorial is a perfect example in the paper. Yeah, there's still print papers, folks, I read them every day. The idea about an editorial is I can give a Zinger out there, "Well, Mr. Speaker, yesterday when you said this, I will take umbrage with you!" And guess what? Your name, and you know, your little titles at the bottom. Well, the anonymity that goes along with social media allows me to go further with that. And now I can have my say in all these genres whether I know it or not.

I'll give you an example. Governor Polis in Colorado came up and they all voted on it yesterday and it became a law now that if you disagree with a book that's in the library and you want it removed or you want it edited or censured or anything else, you don't have to leave your name, your number, anything. All you got to do is contact them and completely with anonymity, they'll act on that. That's not the way society works. The way society works is as a team, we come together and I say, "I object!" And then the rest of the team gets a vote and together we decide what's best for society.

And you know what the first thing you do at a city council meeting, Brian? You stand up and you give your name and your address, because you have to assign context to the relevance and relevance to the context. So this is what I'm talking about. You can have your say, but it's important to me that when you have your say, you go, "This is who I am and this is what why I'm having my say."

That that's why things kind of spiral the way they do on those social media apps, because you have that anonymity, you're not interacting in person. And but I think to me that also is why they are far less valuable. I mean, or I think a lot of times people just attribute like that part of that's a generational thing, and not having it. Like you'll look at it and be like, "How could you say this?" And I'm like, "Look, people say a lot of things. It's the, it's the ways where a lot of guys' girlfriends are in there." You know what I mean? But the, exactly. The idea is, you know, everyone, you, you can have that say. It, it gets, it gets a little crazy on the social media stuff because of that anonymity, which we'll kind of talk about in a little bit here. Yeah. But it is, I think the reason why some of that happens is I mean, it's psychologically and sociologically imperative, right? In a sense that you're, you're allowed to have your say, I have to get that off my chest.

But Brian, you're also taught boundaries. That's where psychology meets sociology. So you don't yell fire in a crowded theater, okay? And think of all the case laws that goes along with all those different things. You don't come into the maternity ward and drop the F-bomb, [expletive]. You know, there's certain things that we don't do. And in that, that ethical register, that social dampening spirit, you know, comes along. And you know what? Some people will object. And when they object, two or three or four of them get together and now they strenuously object and they build signs. All of that's okay. We're okay with all of that. But when that meets the way, okay, right problem.

And the reason why I want to bring up the social media stuff and just human interaction in general, is because it, it sort of clouds out our ability to attribute value to certain things people say or do. And it clouds our ability to sort of sense make and do what's likely going to happen next. Because, because of that sort of cultural, everyone can have their say, in a sense, on that social media. Well, that's a little bit different in person for those reasons you brought up. Like, I'm supposed to be, if you do it in public, I can go, "Hey, man, like, I'm trying to have a nice dinner with my family, can you shut up? Can you stop saying that at this family restaurant? Can you stop..." You know? But but that that's all, all good. But what this, what I'm, what I'm getting at with this is now there's the difference between people want their say, and people want their say and their way. There's, there's the, there's a difference between, you know, I'm complaining to the manager over my food, compared to I'm, I'm throwing fists at the manager over this. You know what I mean?

So if you built an effigy of a political figure and it turned it into a piñata, you're having your say and your way, but that's a low level of intrusion. Now, if you burn that in effigy and you have a hundred people chanting in the street and walking down and flipping cars...

But that's the fear, isn't it? The fear is that it's going to lead to a [expletive] sandwich you can't control.

And I want to go back just a second because you're on to a great point here when you're talking about the value of somebody's statement. Look, folks, everything that you say is important. It's important to get it out there. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying, some of your views are weighted differently. You're not a professor, then your view on this level of education is meaningless. And that hurt some people, Brian, that hurt some people. Look, I would not go to my neighbor, Mrs. Olsen, and ask her about a heart procedure, you know, for cardiac care, because she has no idea. Now she can give me opinion, "Well, you should sit quietly and have some soup," but it's [expletive] meaningless.

So the idea is that certain things that you say are weighted differently and it's important to understand that. And that's why when you tell somebody, "Hey, look, why don't you pipe down in the restaurant? I got my kids here," or come across and do something, that's a different story altogether. Having your say, saying, you know, "Hey, let's color in the lines. Everybody calm down for a minute," right? Calm down, not what you wanted to say, but you get my point. So you're on to something, and I think it's important that everybody understands that while you're valuable, okay? It's important to understand that on social media you think your value is grossly overinflated and you need to rein it in sometime. I've never read a LinkedIn article where a person says, "Wow, that's a great opinion and I love it." What they do is go, "Yeah, I knew a guy like that one," and they have to tell their story. So is for you to tell your story?

That's, that's another example of like, you know, that I could see it where, where, you know, people are going to make it about them. But you know, and kind of what we're getting at with this is the people that everyone gets to have their say. So I'm not concerned about any of that, right? None of that really is like, okay, you're, you're talking. So it's the, what's the difference between someone who wants their say and then someone who wants their way? Meaning someone who's not just going to, you know, sit in their mom's basement complaining online, but who's the person that's actually going to get up and go do something? Because, because ultimately that's all that really matters. Right? It's, it's what your intent is and what your behavior is. And I, I think that's why a lot of things get missed when people go, "Well, I didn't see it coming because, you know, I didn't know. I didn't think the guy was going to go out to his car and grab the gun and come in shooting." And it's like, I just thought they were, they were just having their say. Or no, no, that's different. That's a person, Ted Kaczynski, wanted to say and his way. Right? He, he wrote his manifestos to have his say, but then he actually built bombs and killed people. Right? I mean, the idea is like that's Timothy McVeigh wanted to say and his way. You know what I mean? Who's the person that's actually going to do something? And I, I, I think that's where, because, because, you know, a lot of people bring in different terms like the lone wolf thing or, how am I supposed to identify this or, or who's. And it's everyone's constantly on transmit. And so it's determining, does this person want, just want to have their say or do they want to have their way? Because I'm all about people having their say and letting them have it, because usually the, the situation subsides after that. Right? Don't run out of gas after a while.

They absolutely will, yes.

And so, so I think determining that is what we get a lot of questions about. And I had a great example sent to me from Nick, who went through one of our courses and stuff. But, you know, when you see the, like, the manager of, you know, a Major League Baseball team go out there and yell and scream at the umps, and they're saying this, nothing they say, nothing they say is going to change the call that was made on the field there. Like that will not. Like, what happened happened. Right? And, and so no matter what, they're not going to change anyone's mind and go, "You know what, coach, you're right, that was a, that was a, that was a strike." You know what I mean? It's, it's past that. He already made the call. They know that. The coach knows that going out there. They've been in Major League Baseball for how long? And they still go out there and do that. They have to do that. It's such a great example of it, because why? We're in the middle of it. We're in the game. It's high stakes, it's high pressure. There's people out here. They're in front of us. I need to go say something. It's like, "Well, but what are you getting out of it?" And, and so that's like a logical, I mean, that's, that's something entertaining to watch, but, but it's a great example that highlights what, what we mean by this.

You, you were very illustrative as well in in your recent comments. One of the things that's really important to understand is that you have to put yourself in the shoes of a likely opponent or a likely board member or a likely neighbor and anticipate what could happen, what spirals could come out of what you're going to say or what you're going to do to intervene when they're saying something. What I mean by that is that you might go to somebody that walks in and goes, "This place blows! I quit! And you can all shove it up your ass!" And then walks out to the parking lot and you're thinking in your mind, "Well, that's good, because Frank had his say." Well, you've known Frank longer than anybody else at the plant and you know that every time something like that happens, Frank goes and gets drunk and punches his wife or drives through a fence at the local arena and does whole shots on the lawn of the local church. So it shouldn't surprise you when he walks out to his trunk and grabs a shotgun and says, "It's end times."

So why does that happen, Brian? Because we see the world through our lenses and our lenses only, and we go, "Well, I would never do that." Well, that doesn't mean that you can't have it on the table. And rightly so, you can't have all manners of behavior on the table. There's only a few things that are likely to happen. So if you weigh that "say, not the way," and now you start seeing it go towards the way, look, you're already on a fast track to MDCOA, Most Dangerous Course of Action. And that's why, and whenever anybody would ask me that, I would say, "Let them have their say for as long as they want to, but if they start dabbling in the way, be warned, it's coming." And what comes, because the say and the way combined are not going to be a fun thing.

So what's a say and way that I can live with? Somebody putting a sign out on the front of their house going, "My husband is sleeping with somebody else," or something. That's a person venting, Brian, and it's completely safe. Okay? That person and then goes and buys a gun and starts driving around local motels? That's going to be a mess. And whether it's warranted or not, Brian, I'm just saying it's a likelihood. And that likelihood now is weighted differently. It goes to the top of the stack.

So, so for our critical thinkers out there, life is constantly on transmit, not just people, life. And so that vehicle, that event, that person that's in front of you, this is one mechanism that can immediately tell you that there's danger or opportunity right in front of you. And it's easy if you practice it, it's simple, and it'll get you out of a lot of scrums.

Totally. And that's why it's one of those thinking points that you can go, "Okay, you know, does this person want their say, or do they want their way? Are they demonstrating some other intent? Are they continuing to escalate when everyone else is trying to de-escalate and letting them vent? Are they continuing to gain more territory in the situation or bring people on board with them? Or are they, you know what I mean?" It's like, are you giving them all these chances to de-escalate and walk away, save face, and they're, they're not taking, and they're consciously, deliberately not taking them?

Because sometimes I miss the point and I'm way off in left field because of my hearing or because of my politics or my family. And you got to rein me in with the shepherd's crook and go, "Yeah, okay, we're done. You know, we, we've beaten that horse enough, it's dead. Okay?" And you know, I value that. But my intent was never to have my way. It was just to continue to have my say. So is it okay to rein that in sometime? Yeah, especially when the argument is no longer about what we started at the third time somebody says, "And another thing!" What I'm trying to say, it's time to bring out that shepherd's crook.

So that these are other indicators. And that's a great example that, that you brought up. And the idea is, what, what has this situation now grown into? Because it started back here with this, but you're clearly bringing in all of these other things that we weren't talking about or that wasn't the issue. And then it's, "Oh, and another thing! And you know what, and then the last time I was here, you did!" It's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." So now I'm now realizing the, the sort of the gravity of the situation where it's like, "Okay, this person clearly has all of these other things on their mind."

Yes.

That have nothing to do with the situation we're right in. Which means their glass is full. And when someone's, someone's glass is full, right? When you bump into them, they're going to spill whatever that is all over you. And that could be something, you know, just, and this is what a incredible segue into acting up, acting out. Okay?

Because when you get off the point and stay off the point, and now you stand and you're grandstanding and you're saying, "And another thing!" First of all, that's every domestic I've ever been on, that's going to result in somebody getting yanked out of the house in handcuffs, which is never a good situation. Because stop and think, what's about to come out of your mouth? We're back to put yourself in the shoes of the other person. Are the words that I'm going to say going to hurt them? Is this going to do damage that I can't undo? You know, I'm ringing a bell that I can't unring.

So that's kind of the acting up. The next phase is acting out. So if then I manifest that by throwing something against the wall and tipping over a table or doing that, here we are again. Here we are in that, you know, my way and my way here is I'm acting out. That's unacceptable. That's sociological, physiologically, psychologically unacceptable. Why do I add physiologically? That one, that wasn't an accident. Because the more times you repeat that behavior, the more ingrained that becomes. So you're not going to be happy until you do that. You're not going to be happy until you throw something before you leave the room. And that's not a, you know, a dramatic flourish. We don't come with the soundtrack. That's you creating that gosh darn soundtrack. And it's not going to end well anytime. Dropping the mic is different, Brian. That's somebody that wanted to say and their way. They drop the mic, the conversation's over. Okay? It's not over. Okay, great job. You just delay it for another time. But again, in a form of de-escalation, I'll accept that over you tipping over a table, which is never acceptable. I hope that makes sense.

No, and, and you know, the, the context for some of these things that matter. The location for some of the things matter. You know, you talked about, you brought like the domestic violence situation, obviously it's highly emotionally, highly charged and you're in someone's home. People act differently in their home than they do in their car than they do when they're staying at a hotel somewhere. I mean, those things. And, and because of that, you know, if I'm coming in observing this, I'm like you said, I'm looking at it through my lenses and, oh, I would never do this. And, you know, I, I don't, I, I fail to even recognize the differences in myself. I mean, everyone acts differently at a hotel than they do in their house or on vacation when they do normally. Because you have, you either, how would I, how would I say this out wrong? Where you're going, you're going, you're going to hold yourself to a certain standard in your own home and you'll lower that standard in other places sometimes because maybe, well, it's someone else's mess to clean up and I don't have to do that and that's not mine. And, and you'll have a little bit, but some people have a lot more of that where they're the total, "I don't care" man. Some, that's someone else's mess, I don't care, you know. Like I actually, like I, I pick up my hotel room and make sure it's organized because that's how I like it. And like even if it's not getting cleaned, I'll, I'll actually, I'll make my own bed in a hotel room because I need that. Right? It doesn't matter what it is, but that, that's me and that's who I am, that's what I do every day. So it becomes part of me. So it's kind of like, you know, some people like, oh, whatever, I'll toss it, I'll leave it on the ground, I'll throw everything out the window. But, but you can see that, that change, it's like, is this person like this all the time, or are they doing it right here in this moment?

Here, here's a great thing. And you're right on such an important distinction. Why do they ask for the first month's rent, the last month's rent and a cleaning? Because they know if it's not yours, you're not going to care as much. And there is a segment of us as humans that are going to take that right to the limit and they're going to walk off and they're going to drop the mic and there's going to be holes in the wall and the plumbing is plugged and all these other things. And you know what, you're a landlord, you're not a punching bag. Well, the same is true as a hotel, because hotels are transient. In your mind, you have to understand that responsibility and accountability are transient. When I'm out in traffic in my own car and you don't know who I am, I will do things that I would never consider doing if I was at my home and accountable. I'm in my office and my name tag's on the door, on my parking spot and on my desk. So you have to understand, if you run one of those places or you're night manager at a hotel, you're not dealing with the whole human. You're dealing with that human and their psychology on transient mode, which means they're away from home.

So I would tell you that your local bar and a bar while you're traveling are different. I would tell you that a restaurant that you frequent your family, and going in a fast food joint while you're on the road are two different things. Think about what you do to the [expletive] when you're on the road. Why? Because you have no responsibility or accountability. And instead of dropping a mic, you're dropping the road flare, right? You're trying to get out of there, because you know that you're likely never to see those people again. They have no idea who you are. That level of sociological anonymity is also what builds into crowd violence, because I feel that I'm in the crowd at a carnival or a concert and nobody knows me, so I can punch a nun or, or you know, tip over a car or do those things. I don't know, it's frantic, I guess.

But I want you to understand that that all goes back to my original argument for "say, not way" about boundaries. We learn certain boundaries. And so when we're out there, "Hey, what do even the Amish have? A year to sow the wild oats," right? Oats, oats they sow. So when you go to those places, and I would argue that a motel is different than a hotel. And you're saying, "Yeah, well, I go there because I can only afford that." No, that's not really true. Your brain makes a whole bunch of choices for you. And when you look at that, you think of all these wonderful possibilities that could happen in that hotel. And guess what? You're out on the road, you're out doing different things. Somebody says, you know, "John on that business trip, man, I saw a whole different side of..." Of course you did, because it's not John anymore, it's John on the road.

So, so if you can't equate that, and we're right back to taking the position of another person, being the fly in the wall, putting your shoes in their shoes, Brian, these are all what sets us apart from other trainers. The anticipation and the likelihood and the demonstrations of intent create this little mental checkbox that I can use in any situation. So now if I got "say, not way" and I got "acting up and not acting out," those are two quick questions. Let's say you're a cop and you're pulling up on a scene and you don't know what's happening. It's involved right in front of you. You ask those two questions about everybody that's in the scene very quickly. Now, all of a sudden, you've got some box drawn, right? And now you go, "Okay, well, this stuff's in the box, this is out of the box, this guy's uninvolved, these are just witnesses." It's going to help you create a fidelity-filled baseline much more quickly than just coming into a situation and throwing darts, you know. I don't care what Maslow said about heuristic, I'm about to come on to, because I'm not going to be able to use that to de-escalate. I can't.

No, yeah, no, no. I, we, you, you try to, any, any chance you can bash Maslow. He's not the only one.

Yeah, Sherr called yesterday and goes, "Have you seen my cat?" He's one of my neighbors in the neighborhood, so.

So but he didn't ask about John Boyd, just so you know.

Oh my God, let John Boyd lie, will you? So one I sent you the other day was a Lulu.

Yeah. So, so, you know, you, you brought up a, a great point about the, the crowd dynamics and that's the, the sociological implications of is huge. It goes back to even the baseball example I used, right? Well, I'm, I'm expected to do certain things in these certain situations. I'm expected to have a reaction and it's okay here. You know, does that same manager do that, you know, when he has an argument with his wife? Or probably, probably not. Right? I, I would say that's unlikely. You, you can't make that determination based on how they act there. And it's so heavily dependent on, on what that is. And so you, you, again, using those, those sort of as questions is, "Does this person want their say? Do they want, are they acting up or are they acting out?" I mean, a manager of a restaurant, a manager of a hotel, a cop on a traffic stop, those are valid questions, Brian, that they should always be thinking about before they walk up.

Well, and, and what it does is really help sort of, it's, I mean, it's a, what it is, is, is, you know, you're targeting, but, but you're, you're creating, uh, you're, you're doing a little bit of sense making to figure out what's the best intervention strategy if one needs to be or if I need to let this go and not intervene and let them, you know, run out of gas, because that's likely what they're going to do. And it's hard to bring up specific examples in this, because what everyone gets into is then it's like, well, then they, you know, are they look like they're about to fight or are they doing something physiologically? It's like, okay, that, that's great. But, but just take a step back for a second and look at the way down the continuum. You're, you're way down here, get closer to home. I agree.

Look, a simple thing. Next time you're at the airport to go to the urinal, drop your pants all the way to your ankles when you urinate. That's going to create an atmospheric shift that you could film and demonstrate in class. Now, folks, this is Greg telling you to go out and do this limited objective experiment. Expect fully that people will want to punch you and hit you, or people will run away from you, or security is going to tackle you when you're coming out of that [expletive]. But the idea is, Brian, that's a boundary. It's a social boundary that you cross and you have to be mindful that you crossed it.

You mentioned baseball. There's a, a certain amount of stadiums, I think I know two, where if the ball is a home run and it's hit up into the stands, you don't keep the ball, you throw it back down onto the field. And, and guess what? If you didn't know that, yeah, the context and the relevance on that might make you a pariah in the stands and people will walk away, or somebody will throw a punch at you, or they'll boo you and put you on the, you know, the, the Jumbotron or whatever the big thing that's not what it's, I don't think that's what it's called. Jumbotron in high school, it still hurts me. But listen to me, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about those things that you do without thinking are the things that are most perilous. So that person that's not in touch with their emotional self that starts arguing, "And what, and what's that mean?" And then they're going to come up to you, Brian. That's a person that doesn't understand there's a differentiation between say and way, because they've been getting their way because they're louder and more gruff and they've been acting out more than somebody else. Well, that's not the measure of society. You do not belong in our civilized society. So guess what, outlier, either fix thyself before you knock at the door, or we're going to come after you and do something. We're going to censure you, we're going to throw you in jail or we're going to fine you or whatever else. So that's a balance. And that's what law was created for, because sometimes we're skating on thin ice and we don't know it. So law and physics are two good ways to go back and, and...

Yeah, I think the ball in that situation is the neutrino, then. If those are the positrons.

No, it's Jumbotron as it accelerates. But I know I'm dumb. You don't have to remind me. I'm hurt now. I was up last night with a bear two nights in a row, and you're making fun of my word choices. I make up words that I don't know.

You definitely use them in, in your own sometimes. But, but you, you know, you, you bring up the, the point of, you know, even with the law or, or sociological considerations is, is the, that leads to the boundaries. And so meaning if, if the person in the restaurant is bitching and complaining about their table and then they get a new, better table, well, you, they, they got their way. And so they learned that, you know, you taught them, "I can act like an idiot." Again, that's an acceptable one, right? Because it's not hurting anybody. But, but you have to understand, that's not right. So but that's what, that's what I'm getting at is that person learned, you know, you taught them in that moment, "Well, if I complain, I'm going to ask people and, and you know, maybe I, I said some, you know, inappropriate comments, but, but I got my way." Well, I'm now that's now a method for me. That is now something I'm going to use again in the future.

And you're right back to social media and the, where they ask you to leave your, what was that site? Remember that used to say, "Leave your comment. Did you like it? Did you hate it? Was it food good? Was it bad?" And Yelp. And people were going on and just crippling a startup with a Yelp review because they thought it was funny. You know, they, they did it in Gunnison. The, the, there's a long-time Mexican restaurant in Gunnison, and the college kids came in one year and they rated Taco Bell five-star and the great family restaurant that's been in here forever, three-star. Okay, well, think about that. That changes the dynamic, Brian. You would never think in a million years of sitting at a restaurant, being unhappy with food, and walking around and polling the other people eating, "Hey, how's your food? Mine wasn't that good." And then going to another place. You see what I'm trying to say? There, there's a structure and even though you don't see the structure, that relevance and context cage is around you all the time. And, and so if you, if you understand that it's there, look, I'm not saying bite your tongue when something's wrong. I'm not saying to, to speak up when something's wrong. I'm saying that you have to understand that when the rock hits the pond, you can't bring it back and the ripples are going to go out. So you don't do that on social media. You do that in public society where people are rating you on Yelp with their fist and their feet some days.

No, and, and that's, um, that's important to understand, you know, the, the intervention strategy or the, you know, the even, um, just how you handle those situations, which is kind of why we're talking about this and bringing this up. And, and it's like, okay, you, you have to realize if, if I, if I use that sort of framework of, of, are they acting up, acting out, what, what am I dealing with here? Um, then because obviously you, you want the lowest calorie intervention. You don't want things to go, you know, you brought up the Yelp review where someone bashes it and then I've seen where like the owner of that place will come on and respond like, "Hey, I'm so sorry about your experience. Love to make it up to you, come on in. I'll give you this." And then they're like, "No, I'm never," It's like, okay, so you just, you just, you didn't, you don't want a good resolution. That was never your intent, right? Because you would have, everybody would have, you know, almost everybody would have chosen another strategy. And, and, and that's why, and that's why we boil down things like demonstrations of intent and people acting out is, you know, that's a demonstration of intent. You, you have no, you're not, you don't want this to be resolved. You want to get this off your chest. You, you don't want to actually fix the problem here. You, you have something else going on. And so that changes the, the, the, the math there, right? It changes the calculus a little bit about what I can and can't do in terms of an intervention strategy and determining what the likelihood of this person is. Right? We never know. No one ever realizes, "Well, I didn't think they were going to go out in their car, you know, get the, get the shotgun out and come in shooting." It's like, "Well, well, yeah, but they were screaming it the entire time." It's just you didn't tune into the frequency. You never made the attempt to scan. You know, like, there's scanners for radar for coppers. There's scanners that, that pick up ham radio frequencies. There's scanners that are facing out into our universe to see if somebody's contacting.

Well, every soldier's a sensor, every Marine's a collector. That meant something to me. That meant that you have to go in and be constantly flipping the dial till you understand what frequency that person's transmitting on. And Brian, that's why earlier I said, "Hey, you know, don't drop the 'calm down'." That's never calmed down anything. But then nobody goes further. They all laugh at that platitude. Well, you know what, try this intervention next time to de-escalate any of those situations. "Hey, just give me a minute to understand what's happening here." Now the person will explain more. You know what you just did? You just drew the problem out and they'll get tired of ranting and, "Another thing!" And now we'll know their true intent. And we can bounce them out of the... but we've given them those opportunities you keep talking about.

Yeah, and that's my, and anyone listens to, I do the, "Go on, I'd like to hear more." And then that, you, that's such a great way to determine their intent, because if they're still, if they're still amping up and that temperature is increasing and you're giving them the chance to, to decrease it, then that means they don't want to. So now I know what I'm dealing with.

Right. Right. And now they're filming it and a remote person comes in and you know that it's some attempt to get you cracking that egg on camera, right? So you can use it to discredit somebody or something. That new thing has been around forever. Graffiti was the social media of its age. Cave paintings were the social media of its age. So, so, you know, the allegory of the cave keeps popping up here. You know, and one of the offshoots of the allegory of the cave is you see what you want to see. So if you're only seeing what you want to see, you'll be that person that keeps crossing these sociological boundaries and you'll be pissing people off. You ever, you ever look at a guy, and I do this all the time, and you go, "He's been in the county jail," or you're and go, "Oh, somebody's punched this guy before." And the reason is, but how they're carrying themselves in society is just sending messages to me constantly about, "Hey, that, that Band-Aid on your nose is there for a good gosh darn reason." You know?

Yeah, and that, that's the idea. It's you're, they're transmitting this and, and you know, you're, you're never going to fix that person, but you can fix the situation. Right? You can, you can make a better situation out of it. And this isn't even a like judgment on those people. I don't care. I really don't. You know what I mean? I'm not here. I'm not here to judge you. That's between you and what you, what you pray to or don't pray to. But, but it's what, what's going to happen right now in the moment that I'm concerned about. And, and am I going to be involved in something I don't want to be involved in?

Exactly. Even my membership in the furries comes with accountability. There's a rule. You know, expected level of conduct. And I'm telling you, how are those, how are those tail, tails attached, Greg?

It's not attached to the costume.

Some of them, uh, with gravity. I'll leave it at that. The idea is that you must understand that some places come with different boundaries. And when you go into them, a hospital is different than a church. A church is different than a hotel. And if we want to exemplify that again, a cop walking up on a traffic stop. The person that's in the car is not always the James Bond villain. Sometimes it's just a human and they had too much to drink, or they've had too many tickets or something else. And now they're thinking that anonymity again, Brian, "I'm going to make a social media post by mashing down on the accelerator and pulling away." And we still got cops dying from jumping in the car, jumping in front of the car, doing all that other stuff here.

When we talk about things not being equally weighted, there's one right there. Is that person wanting their say or their way in the car? Their say is them speeding off. Their way is hurting or injuring or starting to run those traffic lights or, you know, driving too fast for conditions. Not every person that you encounter is that animal, vegetable or super criminal. Some people are just going through life. The quicker you get to the resolution of these two questions, the better your relationship with your kids is going to be, your relationship with your significant other, your relationship at church or school or in society. And people are going, "It can't be that easy." It is that easy. Try it today. Go out and try that today.

You mentioned something that I bring up in every group that I'm in. Brian always says, "Make it about the problem, not about the person." That's a form of long-term continuous de-escalation that anybody on the call right now, anybody watching us or, or watching us on YouTube or listening to us, they're driving to work, you can change your life today by adopting that. So, so these work.

No, and, and then making about two things. The, the kid example is always good because, you know, it's a good way to determine, you know, what are they, do they want their say? Do they want their way? Is this something that they're just getting off their chest or is this something that we have to actually talk about and, and get involved? Is there something between the lines? Is there something they're trying to tell us that we're not picking up on? Right? And, and then, you know, making it about the, the problem, not about the person is, is a, is a great way, because then it, it again, what happens when someone, you know, who's an [expletive] and they're being an [expletive] all the time? Like the problem with that is they're going to eventually have like a legitimate complaint that, that is a problem that is necessary. So, so if you're just looking, "Oh, great, what's, what's this [expletive] talking about again?" It's like, "Well, no, this one's, this one's serious. This one you have." So if I focus on the problem, not on that, like, what is the actual issue here? Then it kind of, again, it helps you, it helps reduce some of the noise. It kind of helps get rid of whatever bias you have towards that person, because, which may be a completely legitimate and real and accurate bias, but in this case, you know, you, this is a serious issue. And, you know, we boil those down to, to simple takeaways like that, because that's a way to look at it.

Now, you, they're sticky and they're memorable too, Brian. You know, "Okay, I got that now." Well, no, you don't. That's why you open a file folder and you header the file folder and then you keep adding those experiences in. And guess what? Your brain loves that. Your brain will put them all over different cortical, not just one memory. You don't just have a long-term sense memory. You have a whole bunch of short-term working memories that can up to give you an idea what you should expect next. And guess what? If that person is consistently and constantly choosing off the menu, they're demonstrating their intent. So it all comes back around to a feedback loop and the information that you're sampling now is going to be different in a minute. And it's going to be different in three minutes and five minutes. And I, I love that what we're trying to do is simplify that process for anybody. You don't have to be a PhD to do this.

No, and what you can do, uh, what I always tell folks to do when, you know, when we don't have a lot of time or they don't have, they're not going through some training or something like that, it's like, look, take that, you know, what we just talked about here and, and look back at other interactions that you've had. You've had it where someone was just normal, just argumentative, whatever, nothing came from it. But then you've seen where maybe that spiraled out of control, it was different. Okay, well, well, take a look going back now. What were the differences there to go, "Oh, wow, now I see that person was screaming at me the whole time that they were going to do it, whereas this time where nothing happened, they..." It's obvious to tell in hindsight to go, "Oh, yeah, I could tell that nothing was going to happen there." This one is, use those, use your own experiences to then as a comparative baseline going forward. And then you'll, you sort of already have some of the, the experience in there of what demonstrations of intent look like, the difference between someone who wants their say and their way, because you, you've seen it before, right? And, and so, so now you can determine going forward, go, "Okay, this is likely someone here. I need to intervene sooner, or this one's, this one's spiraling out of control, I may need to get some help," or whatever the situation or the context is. It doesn't matter. It's just, it's the, the sort of the anticipation and then the recognition of, of what, what could occur is that's where the power lies, because then you don't have to deal with everything after the fact.

So let's give a street example. And that's profound again, Brian, you did it. There's a website called IMDb. Every single time I watch a movie, I go to IMDb and the first thing I do is I bring up the, the actors, you know, that played in the film. Then I go to the site and I read the behind the scenes and all the things that people have added. Now, yes, in a manner it can be like the Google machine where people add their ridiculous crap, but most of the time it's a filmmaker or a film student or somebody saying, "Hey, this nuance thing, look at the aspect ratio." I love that minutiae. But when I look at the actors, when I look at the, the, the people that, that filled out that film for me, you'll start in the first four or sometimes five people will be somebody you recognize. "Okay, that was the protagonist. These two were the antagonist. This was the aunt that they lived with." And then all the other people, you'll look at and go, "Holy crap, I didn't know these 35 other people were in the film." Why? Because they were just the background that's going on. That's what we do wrong.

What we do wrong is we look for the character that's right in front of us and compare them to us, rather than looking at the cast and saying, "They're not equally weighted." This person now has just popped up and they're more significant because they're closer to me. And that person because they're revving their engine. And this person because they smell of alcohol when they went by me. All of those things are important. And that's where those guys' movies about John Wick and the, the guy from the CIA and all those other things come from. Wouldn't it be great if you could do that? Well, you and I are saying, you can do that in almost every situation. And you don't have to be some tire-flipping, rope-climbing superstar. What you do is you understand that everybody matters. And that life is made up of a cast of millions and and billions of people and they're not all weighted equally. Does that mean that they're not as important? No, but my span of control, those people around me are. And you pop hot, you become more important to me when you demonstrate intent. If you think of life like that, Brian, what we do is very, very simple, okay? But it's so complex that, that it takes people coming back to the class and buying the book and doing all these other things and they still want to learn more. Why? Because life is amazing. It's amazing that everybody in your scene matters, but if you only look at your front door and your boots and your car, guess what? Life is just routine, man.

And, and just like that IMDb website, you know, that, that, that actor, that character, they played a different role, a different character in a different movie. And so sometimes in hundreds of movies. So you, you kind of assume. And I like those analogies because we, we use them a lot because for, for films, because it's where people get you, they're so popular because it tells a story and storytelling is obviously everyone loves. But the idea is, you know, we, we each kind of assume a role in these different situations. But that role isn't, that's not your, you know, you're not typecast necessarily unless you're so distinct in who you are that like that's it. Right? You know, there's some of those characters that, that's it, that's the only role they play. They never, ever be out of that role.

Exactly. But that's, that's not, that's not typical, right? So we all play a different role based on what we are in that scene, in that scenario, in that situation. Who we see ourselves as changes. We, we change during that film because we go, "Oh, elements of me are in this female. Elements of my social life are in this protagonist. And you know what, that, that evil guy..." You know my, my rant, we should write a book about the Z-films because they're, they're waning now. That's not as important after the, in popularity. Now they, they got real popular a few years ago though, with the everything.

So, yeah.

But after the six seasons and it was [expletive] and it's still [expletive] and all the spin-offs are [expletive], and I'll tell you why. You have a fantasy, and I'm talking to you and the audience listening right now, that if everything went to pandemonium and pandemonium in apocalyptic proportions, that you could be and do whatever you want. You could rewrite your history. You could take a Waring blender and spin it around your head by the cord and knock people out, whether they're zombies or real people. You could rape and pillage. You could live in a hut. You could create your super outfit. And nobody give a [expletive], because they're fighting in the apocalypse against zombies. That anonymity is what social media caused, and those filmmakers stepped away from that, Brian. They stepped away from what we really felt inside on, I'm losing my breath, on what I could be here. I could, I could break into my neighbor's home and live in their attic, you know, those type of things that, that we have boundaries about. Crossing those boundaries is an amazing feeling. It's cathartic for all of us. And guess what? Once those movies ended up, then, then we don't watch them anymore.

So the problem with the person at the restaurant that's yelling those obscenities and acting like an idiot, they're living in that old film. They don't understand that sociologically they're crossing a boundary. And that's why we get back to "say, not way." That acting up, acting out, is those are boundaries that we can feel when we're in an environment. And when we cross them, there better be a gosh darn good reason for crossing them, or what do we tell people? How long have you, "Stay in, stay in your lane." And everybody used to, "Stay in your lane." But they really don't get it. They really don't get that when you merge into other lanes, you're the rock in the pond. So don't get out there because that's a bold move, Brian, bold move to, to be that rock in the pond today. You know? So I, I appreciate you letting me go on Z's, but it's such an important tactic when you're teaching your kids or your family or somebody else, "Why do people act the manner that they do?" Well, some people push those boundaries all the time. And, and those are the people that are going to act up and act out. So the person gonna have their say and their way. It's, it's another way of looking at it, I guess.

No, and, and that's why, that's why I wanted to, to kind of deep dive it and, and to give these different examples. And we, we gave a bunch from, you know, everything from Major League Baseball to deal with kids to, to, to Zombie Apocalypse movies, which is staying at a hotel.

Yeah, my God, I used to love them. That's always...

Well, that's always the thing. Okay, everyone does the, "When this scenario, when everything goes to [expletive]..." It's like, okay, okay, okay.

And they always get it wrong, Brian. Watch a movie like Last Man on Earth, that Vincent Price. Go back and get one of those originals. The first six seasons of The Walking Dead. I have to deal with this dilemma right back to you dealing with the problem, not the person. And now what it became, it all became Peyton Place, where the tribes are now fighting each other. Dude, if you were the last couple of people on Earth, you'd be working together. You cannot work together.

So well, if you, if you the historical examples are when things go really bad, people band together and they start over and they, they move and they get better and they, they learn, they learn the hard way. And then they, they said, "Okay, well that, things, we got to, we got to wind the tape back a little bit." Things go crazy and then, and then they band together. And, and so that, that's the whole thing is that...

I love that perfect example of The Lord of the Flies is an actual event that occurred. But the event that occurred is those kids pulled together and survived. So the author goes, "Well, holy [expletive], there's no book there!" Right? I mean, think about that. So when we talk about Hollywood years, they literally made their own splints for people that hurt themselves. They those kids, they had people that were responsible for hunting for food. They assigned roles and they said, "Let's do this, we're going to survive." They did really well, really did. But that doesn't that, that's not as good as the book of Lord of the Flies though.

I can't piggyback with the [expletive] with the...

Exactly, Brian. That's what we're saying about life. Life, once you start unraveling the mysteries, there's certain constants and those constants can help you understand. We're not going to bring up the, the new Stanford study and free will. But what we are going to do, you say, "Life, comma, you're doing it wrong." Go back, take a... I would say to everybody, listen, this is a great podcast. I'm having fun. Go take just those two things we talked about today and maybe another third point where we talked about an example and go out and try them today and, and, and see this week if your life becomes easier and more, you understand it more or better. I think you will.

I know, and I don't think people are doing it wrong, just they're, they're talking about or analyzing it incorrectly what they're doing sometimes. I mean, I see that with the misapplying. I agree, they this is going to happen and things are going to go to [expletive] and they're coming up these crazy scenarios. But then sometimes they're like, "Hey, that's why you want to make sure like, hey, you, you prepare for things and you have this and you have a community of people and you got to get everyone else involved." It's like, "Yeah, that, that's the right thing." But all the stuff about it is, "Oh my God, you know what I'm going to say? It's coming up on Halloween. You know what I'm going to say? I'm dressing as Nostradamus for Halloween again this year." And the reason is, Nostradamus' first name was Mike. Once you understand that, you know, pay no attention to the men behind the curtain, right? Life is much simpler than we're making it. Yes, it's much more complex, Brian, but it's much simpler in so many ways that we can control today.

Yeah, and our ability to adapt to it is, is far better than, than what people give it credit, credit. I mean, it's going to adapt in, in what it sees as a survival, but it's still going to adapt very quickly. I don't, I don't know, not, not all societies are going to turn to Mad Max the first one or The Thunderdome. Uh, uh, and those make great movies and we love to see them, Brian. But that's not how, that's not how life, that's not how it's played out, though. That's not. And it never has been. And anyone that attempted that, they, they died off. I mean, didn't last. So that, and that's why there's, there you, you have to uncover the hieroglyphs or the petroglyphs to talk about that because they're unremarkable. Yeah, and that's why they're remarkable. Things stick around. Test the time. Let's go back to the Greece high five.

Well, I think that's a, uh, I didn't get a high five back, but yeah, it's a virtual, virtual high five. Does it have the little things up there where they some that I have to do this hand though? Belly, Billy.

Exactly. I just want the conjugal visit. You ever been to a Turkish prison? Um, so that's a place to land.

Yeah, I think that's a, a lot are about to book or we shut up. What, what's going on?

Yeah, it's coming out. Those folks who are, who are connected have already got their updates about it. I'll be sending out some more soon. So if you're signed up, I think a couple of people already have them too. They, they went out. That's for sure. So they're getting in the hands of people. So we're going to get some feedback and then and then do maybe, maybe do a kind of deep dive on some of the stuff in there. We can always, and I want cool stuff, Brian, I want cool stuff too. I want somebody that buys our book to show us where they're holding the book or, you know, they're on Kilimanjaro holding the book or they're eating remains after a plane crash using the book as a plate. I want some cool stuff like that too that we can show on social media. You know, that's it could happen if you're... I don't know what you're doing with our book if you're on Kilimanjaro and, you know, if you're, you're eating human remain. Why do you always have to take? Please use the pages for fire.

Don't exactly. Don't read it so you don't die. You know? Or to wipe. But listen, hold up that book and send us that photo. "Hey, had saved my life. I was able to use the pages for fire and warmth."

I'm going to use mine tonight to fight the bear. Fight the bear.

Um, I think, I think that's a good place to end on with it. Um, you know, that there's some, some, some good takes. There's got to be, got to be a lesson in there somewhere, right? Um, even a monkey with a typewriter, Brian. But, but please, if you have any questions about this, definitely reach out to us. TheHumanBehaviorPodcast@gmail.com. That, that's great. And then we do more on the Patreon site and have Q&A stuff on there in different videos. And they're getting all kinds of previews for that we have coming up. So that's good. Um, and then we do appreciate everyone, everyone listening. And, uh, um, yeah, thanks, thanks. If you do enjoy it, please share, share the episode with a friend or send it to someone. And, uh, we love the feedback, um, and questions so we can talk about it on here. So please, please, uh, reach out to us. Anything else to add, Greg, here before we wrap?

Uh, pray for Shelly and I and our bear. Yeah, you know, the new ones don't get eaten. You know what Java does? Java's the smartest. Our dog is the smartest. Instead of going out fronting the bear, she goes upstairs and lays down.

Yeah, that's probably the smart thing to do. I tried it and Shelly kept poking me. So apparently I'm in charge of this bear. So on that note, thanks, Brian, for tuning in. And don't forget that trained bears changes behavior. Bears do change behavior. They really do, but training also changes behavior. Thanks everyone.