L.O.G. 172 The Guarantee On The Box

Well, good morning, Greg. How are you on this Friday morning that we're recording this? It's 51 degrees in Gunnison this morning. It's autumn, but it's heating up in the morning, you're saying. Hey, my dear friend, I'd like to shout out to Lonnie Percival. His birthday is tomorrow. So is the rodeo starting tomorrow, the longest continuously running rodeo in the United States, Gunnison, Colorado. Folks, if you've got nothing to do, go ahead. Seven dollars!

So, today, we're going to be talking about certifications, and we're talking about that for a number of reasons we'll jump into. But one of the problems we see is that we see these, what we would call, certificate mills, which are just companies that spring up when a new law or policy or procedure comes out saying, 'You must be certified in this if you work in this profession.' People then point to that, and they make a bunch of money off of it, going, 'Okay, well, we can certify you in that.'

The idea behind certification is a good concept, right? We need to create a national standard, whether that's you're a nurse, you're a doctor, you're a police officer, you're a firefighter, you're a plumber. There are different certifications you can get for your job, right? And it's important because somebody came up with this idea that this should be the minimum standard. This should be the training you get. This should be the experience you have to have, whatever it is, to meet this certification. And you are certified then to conduct this, right? Whatever that is, like this job, this specific task. It can be even within, especially, the construction industry, like, 'No, I'm only rated; I'm only certified up to this level of crane operations.' So, 'I can't operate that one because I don't have, I haven't met the standard, even if I know how to do it.' So, there's a legal reason and a liability reason behind it.

Now, these aren't necessarily bad things, right? That comes from a good place. It's just what happens is, the problem is, people then rely on that as some sort of, 'Oh, that means you're good and you know what you're doing.' I always give the example of, Greg, what do you call the guy or girl that graduates at the absolute bottom of their medical school class? Well, you call them a doctor. So, they still have the same certification, but do you want that person operating on you when it's your turn to go under the knife?

There's a broad range of differences, even though everyone's certified. I had a perfect example from my experience in doing government contracting. You'd have someone that showed up, and their resume was impressive. They'd been to every school here and there, and been part of this unit, this specialized team. And they show up, and they're a soup sandwich. They suck. They're horrible to get along with. Their proficiency is really low. They didn't lie on their resume. They did all that stuff. So, we often fall into the fundamental attribution error, right? Okay, you're certified to do this, you must be able to do that, then you must be good at what you're doing. In fact, it absolutely means nothing sometimes.

I refer to the Tommy Boy, that Chris Farley movie Tommy Boy, example, which I'll put a link actually in the episode details just because you'll be a better person if you watch that link. That's true. But, he's selling the brake pads for his Callahan Auto Parts, and the guy he's trying to sell to is like, 'Yeah, but look, your competitor right here, they have a guarantee on the box! It's putting them right there on the box! So, I know as a consumer I get this, and it makes me feel warm and soft inside, and I know if anything goes wrong, it's guaranteed.' And then, obviously, Chris Farley (as Tommy Boy) goes into this whole long spiel about everything that goes wrong and goes, 'How do you know that they're just not selling you a guaranteed piece of s***?' He goes, 'I'll take a dump in a box right now and slap a guarantee on that. Trust me, I've got the time!' And he's saying, 'You can go sell that.' And that's kind of my view sometimes on certification. But everyone gets obsessed with that. They go, 'Well, we want to certify everyone in this!' And, just because you've got the cert, just because you clicked through and you answered all the right questions on the test, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. And that's the problem.

So, it needs to be there, in my opinion, right? You need to have some sort of standard in all these different areas. But that doesn't mean that the certification could basically be meaningless. It could be, you just got a paper that you printed out when you answered the test questions correctly, and now you think that you know what you're doing. That's right. I think the problem I saw, that's kind of where I just want to start with a couple of those examples and explain at least my position on what a certification process is.

I think you're really ambitious because you're saying that the certification, answering correctly on the test questions... you're presupposing, you're assuming that to get a certificate or a certification, you're going to have to actually, I'll tell you right now, that's not the case in almost all of the situations. As long as you send in your check and you do it regularly or annually, you're going to have it.

No, no, go ahead.

We've had those where someone says, 'Are you certified by this police training thing to teach this course in the state?' And our answer is, 'No, but if you want to get it certified, go ahead.' 'Well, you've got to talk to so-and-so.' And then you go there, and all you do is you pay them money. You pay, they fill out the form, and then they go, 'Okay, you're certified.'

I think they look at your... would they look at some of your material? But what the hell would someone do if they looked at it?

Precisely. But listen, in a dozen of those, Brian, they never asked for an example of anything. They asked for our company name, whether we had a Dun & Bradstreet number, whatever else, our tax ID code, and $100. That's it. So, that's my problem. That's what I'm talking about.

So, I'm going to go off on a tangent, but, your Honor, I hope you'll... for example, I think one thing we need to discuss in a couple of minutes is that there's a difference between a certificate and certification. I think that's huge. I think accreditation would be the last thing, you know, those three things in a row.

I think that what people don't understand sometimes is how ridiculous the standard is. So, I'll give you a couple of ridiculous standards. One: every time that you see a new medicine, or a medicine that's been around forever that's on television, they always talk about this and that, and show a person riding a bike, and swimming, and swinging on a tire swing, and everything's happy. And then the announcer says, 'But it will cause left arm paralysis, vaginal dropopsy, dry mouth, headache.' Why do they do that quiet? They do that quiet, Brian, because with everything, you get something else. You get the unintended trade-offs, you get all the other s*** that comes with it, right? Okay, so have that in your mind.

Certain certificates are absolutely meaningless if they're not from an an accredited agency and if they're not certifying you in a specific task or skill. So, I'll give you an example of that: flying into Gunnison. I had more flights canceled in and out of Gunnison than any other airport in the world. And I always have a backup plan for three other airports that I've got to drive to, and it's more times than not that I'm going to send you information, 'Hey, I'm headed to Denver,' right? You know that. Okay, so why? Because pilots are rated for certain visibility: IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) landing, VFR (Visual Flight Rules). Yeah, exactly. Even though that pilot is a pilot and flies thousands of people in a year, they can't fly into Gunnison between 2 and 7 p.m. because these conditions exist, and he's not rated on, or she's not rated on, those conditions.

So, when you said earlier that sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't; sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad... there's one, there's a professional certification I want to uphold. Do you know what I'm trying to say? I don't want the person going, 'Well, f***, I fly into Buffalo, it's kind of the same thing. Let's go!' You see what I'm saying? So, in an industry standard, I like that. But for most of the work that we do, there isn't an industry standard, Brian. There is not. Like, for example...

No, there's generally accepted practices, but there isn't necessarily a standard, right?

Right. So, I sent you a thing a couple of days ago where the person said, 'This four-hour course that'll make you an instructor in this topic.'

Okay, I don't know anything. Stop, stop.

No, but what did I send you? What did I send you? It was accredited by 'The Five-Star Police Practice Institute of Safety and Love,' or whatever. And it's a body of s*** that doesn't get any prettier when we stack it on top of each other. Remember the old Monty Python episode of the guy stacking the dung? The guy goes, 'Well, at least he's got an f***ing job!' No. So, it's the same thing.

Here's where I go off the rail on a final comment. I'll rein it in, and we'll go back to the topic. When I see people talking about their uniforms, their new police cars, or their coins... 'Okay, so they're releasing the new graphics on their police car.' How's your de-escalation program working? Do you get what I'm trying to say? They're giving you a coin. Who are you to give a coin? Do you remember a call sign? Well, I'm not even going to say it because I'm not going to give him any credibility whatsoever. But he had his own coins made up, and he would 'coin' you. So, I'm in Iraq, I'm in a defac (dining facility). He comes up behind me, goes, 'Hey, buddy!' I turn around, he coins me. I go, 'What are you, a three-star?' Okay, the coins are meaningless. You think that coin is some sort of talisman or good thing, and Brian, people are going to hate us after this broadcast because I'm telling you they're not. You know what? You want somebody to remember the shoebox? Give a tourniquet.

Yeah, yeah. I've got a drawer upstairs in a shoebox full of coins. It hasn't helped me get a job, hasn't helped me get more money on my paycheck.

You know, that tourniquet, and you know, my argument's always been: our certificate for a course should be a tourniquet. And make it bright color; make it orange or pink so it's easy to find in an emergency. Anybody that sees that goes, 'I know the course that person went to,' and anytime you have to use it, you'll think about those tenets.

Yeah, because like a certificate versus certification... certificate of completion, we're not talking about that. You need something, yeah. I've done something for the last three days, yeah.

Like, you got it. It's probably a good thing for your boss and your training officer, yeah. But certification is sometimes such a lower standard. Like, I love the Colorado POST (Peace Officer Standards and Training) board, Brian, because they say, 'We don't approve or endorse training vendors or the classes that you offer. It's up to you as an agency to determine which training...'

What's the point of the office? What's the point of that POST certification then?

So, what they do is they make sure that your training is relevant, realistic, and responsive. That's it. So, they make sure that you're actually who you say you are. Do you get what I'm trying to say? And they will aggressively enforce anybody that's saying that, 'Hey, we've got something out there that's not working,' because the idea is, Brian, there are so many people that... look, our stuff is open source. Oh, yeah. So, come on, hundreds of cents. As I said, 'Border Hunter,' people still haven't put together the recipe. Why? Because it's not that easy. You can't read a bullet point and be certified in how to do these topics.

Well, and that comes into what you're talking about, vetting a little bit, right? Because part of the reason this stuff is done and said, 'Well, if we create a standard, we certify people, then I know someone else can show up somewhere and go, "Yes, I've met that qualification," or "I've completed that certifying course here in this other place," and they can say, "Okay, yeah, I've got it. We know that holds up."' But the problem with that is, it's just like you just explained, then there's no... that takes any onus off of me to do any sort of vetting of you, Greg. If you show up and say, 'I have all these certs,' I can maybe check the fact that you're on file, but that doesn't mean that you're any good at your f***ing job. It just means you've met the minimum requirements to obtain this piece of paper that maybe certifies you in a certain thing, right?

So, the idea—I think that's the argument, I think that's core to the argument—what it does then is, then I get to turn my fing brain off and go, 'Oh, look, he's certified. I don't need to do any research!' It's like when we're on a call with those folks at one time, and the guy goes, 'Yeah, but can you send me something or put me in touch with someone who's been through your course before so I can talk to them?' And I literally said on the call, 'You want me, the guy pitching you this concept, to send you someone to talk to about it? What the f do you think they're going to say? Who would put a review on your website showing, "The guy's not bad, could have done better"?' Like, I'm going to send you someone who thinks I f***ing walk on water! So, what do you expect them to say? If you're not going to do your own vetting, then you're the problem.

So, that's kind of what it gets into, and again, we do this because we go, 'Oh, they're certified in this, they must be good at that.' I mean, I've seen that before too, especially working with different military units, especially when I was younger, going through stuff. And man, I got, because of part luck, part just volunteering for crap, got to do some stuff that usually you have to have a little bit more experience to do. And I was one of the younger guys, and I was always intimidated because I was like, 'Oh, well, they're this, or they came from that unit, they must really know!' And then we get inside the house and start shooting. I'm like, 'This guy fing blows! What the hell happened?' So, we do that, and so we have this reliance, and all it does is create an industry. And that industry is just making money off of s-filling out paperwork and putting their stamp, a seal, or stamp of approval on it, and it literally doesn't mean it.

Now, we see it all the time, especially with law enforcement stuff, but it's everywhere. It's so prevalent that because we want to have this standard, a company, of course, is going to come in and go, 'Oh, yeah, well, we can certify your people in that. Here, let me show you.' And it's like, 'Oh, okay, so I just pay you?' And they pay you, and then, 'I don't have to f***ing think about it and worry about it!' Yeah, that's what you're paying for. It doesn't mean anything.

And so, it just drives us nuts when we see that stuff and go, 'Well, are you certified to teach this? Are you certified to do...?' Which is very different than, a course curriculum review board with the military or something, where they literally have to go through every slide, everything you say, and go, 'Why did you put this period here? Why did you say that here?' And there are four doctors or PhD folks asking you the freaking questions, grilling you on it. Man, that's rigor. Okay, that's rigor. But a certification process does not guarantee rigor. Do you get what I mean by that, Greg?

Yeah, so, I think I go back to my point about the medicine and, or, when you see the diet plan on television, at the bottom it says it hasn't been reviewed by the FDA or any other governing body. The reason those things are in small print is because we all know that the fix is in. We all know that it's a game and that you can game the game. So, why do we do it? If we do it for compliance, I'm all for it. But if we do it for comfort, I'm not. If we do it for satisfaction, I'm not. The idea of somebody saying, 'Well, listen, is it open to peer review?' Do you know how much peer review I've been under in the last, let's say, 15 years? Do you know what it's like to pump out more than one program, a record? Do you know what it's like having industry-standard people probe every word, like you said, and every comma? And say, 'Do you remember the fight over atmospherics, for the love of God, man?' So, the idea to me is that we're back to the coin and the tourniquet. Okay, do you want to say that my program is accredited or vetted? Yes. And can you do that? Yes, because for our side, all of the rigor that's gone into our stuff, and it's all open source, and you can go and you can check it.

But then, you and I have had the experience of people telling us, 'Go to these places because, you know, it's fast. You'll get the accreditation you need, and then it helps the cop on the end because they get points towards their professional development,' which we're all for. But then you say, 'Okay, what do we do?' 'Well, we go to...' I don't want to say any state or something because we can't even say countries anymore. We'll pick, you know, Zanzibar. Sorry, Zanzibar, you're just on the list. But in Zanzibar, Brian, we want to be on the Zanzibar Council of Higher Education. So, we'll call them and we'll say, 'Listen, we heard that we can get accreditation, yeah, this and that. Oh, and they get follow-up credits.' Okay, well, we want that. And again, they say, 'Fill out your name, your company name, send us your tax ID, and send us a check for this amount of money.' Well, that's horse crap! And there are international organizations that have cool names that everybody is very efficient. Oh my God! And everybody goes, 'Well, you're a member,' and then, 'Oh, the international... you guys are international!' Exactly.

Okay, so, but a lot of times, my thing is, Brian, so what's the difference? I'll give you the difference in a metaphor that I understand. So, you go through a police academy, and police academies can run from 14 to 21 weeks. What do you do at the police academy? Everybody that's much smarter than you and I came up with a list of items that are most likely the things that will cause litigious society to go after you, that will cause mistakes, that will cost your agency money, that are contra the U.S. Constitution. They've got a curriculum that's developed over years, hard-fought learning, and saying, 'These are the modules that are going to best prepare you for the road.' Then what do you do? Do you go out on the road? No. You go to an FTO (Field Training Officer) program. And the FTO program is 10 to 14 weeks with a mentor.

Yeah.

A cop that's gone through even more training than the average cop to train you, to make sure that you fully understood all those principles and you can integrate them out on the street without shooting yourself in the foot or shooting somebody else in the foot. Then what do you do? Well, then you're on probation, do you understand? And you're on probation for a series of months; it's a year in most agencies to make sure that you fit the bill. Brian, what type of organization have we run into recently, in the last couple of years, that has put their personnel through that kind of a stringent requirement? And the answer is zero. And so, when you ask for the document, if you're just asking to plug it in, to put a check mark in a box, then I say, 'Kiss my a***.' Because it's just because you're a member of a professional organization does not infer that you are better or worse than anybody else, or you have more or less experience than that person. And it's just... why is it a point of contention? Because anybody can come up and say, 'I'm the Assistant Director of whatever else, Assistant,' without having any credentialing program.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, you brought up a good point when you said compliance versus comfort. What are we doing it for? Are we doing it to ensure someone truly understands a topic or tool or procedure, or are we using it to make ourselves feel better? Because what this stuff leads to... no better example than the Uvalde shooting. What this leads to is what's called a presumed capability. When I go, 'Okay, Greg, I certified you in this.' Oh, but then that officer shows up on the scene, and he doesn't know that he can pull the trigger on the guy, even though she's a fing guy outside the door of a school with a gun going in and has to call in higher. And then they find out, 'Well, you know what? That was actually about 140 yards away, and we only certify those guys, or they only shoot on the range out to 100 yards with that rifle.' And you're going, like, 'That's it!' That's called a presumed capability. Here, you think you're certified to do this, yet when it comes time to actually do it, well, you fing dropped the ball because you actually don't know what you're doing, but you got certified in this.

And so, this is my problem with all this stuff, is we're so focused on this certification process that people can't even do their jobs very well. I mean, again, they've met some minimum standard, but that doesn't mean they actually know how to apply it, right? But you get all the check marks, you got all the certs. 'I'm the guy that can do all these different tasks. Look at me!' Now I get promoted faster because, 'Oh, yeah, I went to all these different schools while you were out on the road f***ing doing the job every day!' Right? I was doing this, this, and this, and I got certified.

And that presumed capability that I've talked about before is the worst. It's worse than having no capability. If you say, 'Hey, we don't have that capability,' at least you know what your limitations are. But when you have a presumed capability, when you think you can do something that you actually can't execute, that's f***ing far worse! Because now you're building your policies and procedures off of this presumed capability, and it's just a house of cards. As soon as they hit some friction, as soon as it hits a speed bump, it's going to just come collapsing down. Why? Because you decided to, 'Well, I'm going to do the bare minimum. This makes me feel better legally. This helps us because we can say we're no longer liable because this, this, and this.'

And now, for that case, or for the police officer example, or the medical example too, is one where they can then say, 'Well, it's not on us; it's on that individual. We only allow them to do this. They went above and beyond that, or they didn't meet this standard, so they shouldn't have been able to use that maneuver or procedure.' Well, now you're just fing them over, right? So now they don't have, and they're going, 'Wait a minute, I thought that I could do this!' And it's like, 'Well, no, if you see, if you look here in the fine print...' See the commercial? Did you listen to the part at the end where it says it could induce vomiting, no fing headache?

Precisely! That's the whole thing!

It's like, well, you... that can come with it. And so, it becomes junk. I mean, it just becomes, 'This is s***ty! This is terrible! Why do this crap?'

But, listen, let's make sure that we stay in the training lane because almost every certification, professional certification, that you see out there is from an accredited location or body that has internationally set standards, or has to do inspections or calibrations. For example, health care, dental care, having the eye surgery, the LASIK, all that other stuff. When you look at that, it's rare to find worthless degrees or fraudulent claims, right? But in our industry, more than ever, anybody that's graduated from basic training, can go in and say, 'I'm certified in executive and dignitary protection!' Oh, yeah! And 'high-speed threat recognition!'

No, those are buzzwords.

But, Brian, the buzzwords give us the comfort to say, 'Wow, this person...' Like, somebody wrote me last night, 'Wow, look at their website!' Oh my gosh. Somebody wrote me last night and asked about a program in the Air Force. And the Air Force program that they asked about had its bona fides; it's accredited. I know of the course. It started back in the '90s. And what it was for is the Air Force Security Police don't get the same type of training as all other types of law enforcement, and they're certainly not PJs (Pararescue Jumpers). So, what they did is they put this program together to say, 'Hey, if two of you are standing together, or four of you, you can put together a team in case there's an incident.' Okay, so it was about planning, it was about procedure, it was about acting together in unison. Those are all good ideas.

Yeah.

So, when I heard of the program, I said, 'Yeah, I remember that program. That's a really good thing.' So, that word-of-mouth on a program is rich too, because it's not just flipping hearsay. I don't want to use the 'effort'—I think you've exceeded our standard today—but because we're so passionate about this... So, the idea again behind the coin or the tourniquet: when you, like, Brian, you and I have said this a number of times, there are a certain number of people that both you and I know that are in the industry that if somebody asked us about them, we'd say right now, 'Go hire them! They're great! Their programs are great! Everything.' Pablo's AS3 for example, to say I can't say enough about what the... I can't say enough about him. You and I have broken bread with him, we've been with him, we've seen him dealing with these people. He's amazing. I can think of a few people like that in the field. And we're not calling out for that program, folks; we're just giving you an example where that person has the bona fides, they've been vetted, they've been there and they've done it.

And then we've got other people where people ask me about, 'Well, have you ever heard about this person? They wrote a book about situation awareness.' No, I've never heard of you, I've never seen you. I read this stuff, and the stuff that they put in the book, it's all softball. 'Put your head on a swivel.' Kiss my head on a swivel! That's ridiculous stuff. So, let's make sure that the people listening understand what we're saying is, 'Put up or shut up.' If you are the thing, then you should be able to have a body of work to show.

Yeah. And here's the thing that I've created. Here's the people that I've worked with. Here's what they said. Here's what my program did.

But, you know...

And I look at this too, is going back to kind of what we've talked about before, I mentioned earlier, this fundamental attribution error. And, if you're going to use this, 'Well, they're certified in this,' I always do the, 'Okay, that's great. What is that? That doesn't necessarily tell me anything about this person.' Now, if they're certified to fly a rocket to the moon, I've got to take their word for it, right? No, but the idea is, we can't always look at just those things because everyone wants to hit the wickets and go, 'Well, did they meet this criteria, this criteria, this criteria? Let's check that box. Okay, they're good to go.' And it's like, 'Hang on, you can't just evaluate someone on that.' Like, it's the same thing with degrees. It's like people, 'Well, they have a degree in this.' I'm like, 'What the f***, dude?' I was like, 'I have a master's degree from a good school, like, yeah, it's an Ivy League school, but like, if I can do it, trust me, anyone f***ing can!' And it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It just means you went and did this amount of work to earn this piece of paper. I'm not taking anything away from people; I'm putting myself in that same boat. Just because you're certified in something, just because they give you the approval, doesn't mean you know how to apply it very well. It doesn't mean you have a lot of experience in it.

I got a certificate when I graduated sniper school out of Camp Pendleton years ago, right? Okay. But when I graduated, I was nowhere near the level I was at, a year later. You get what I'm saying? Like, but if you looked at my DD-214 (Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) at the time, it would still just show that one school and some others. But the idea was, it's the experience you gain along the road. It's the tacit knowledge that matters. It's not those check-in-the-box. That's all it should be. So, look at it as that is, 'Okay, I've got to check this box before I can go out and do this and gain this experience.' So, I think, I... it's always...

Let me, let me, let me, let me add to that. So, you and I had an experience together where we were on a Zoom with somebody that was very, very nice, and it was for a specific agency that we were going to go in and do some training for. And the person said, 'It's $2,500 the first year, and then a thousand dollars maintenance fee to be a member of this lettered agency.' And they said, 'What I'll do is I'll sit down and I'll review your curriculum and I'll make suggestions.'

Okay. My curriculum has been reviewed by US DOJ (United States Department of Justice), US DOD (United States Department of Defense), I mean, experts in the field. And nobody really understands the process unless you go through the process. Okay, so I take that as an immediate insult that you, in your basement on the weekend, as part of what you do, are going to review my curriculum. Do you remember how many times, Brian, for example, 'supervised autonomy'? It seems like an oxymoron. But when we were working on a program for a government agency, and supervised autonomy, that being a member of that program and working with the controlled methods, we vetted our program. Do you understand what I'm saying? So, how many people in the room at one time had education degrees, and all they did is look at the words we wrote, the order that we put those words in, and then how we assigned those to the message that we're trying to get across? Brian, we stood up to challenges from all of these different... That's what we're saying.

We're saying that if the person that comes to you and says, 'I've got this training that I want to bring to your agency,' take a minute and take a look at the panoply of things that that person has done. Take a look at the professional organizations that they belong to. Take a look at the people they associate themselves with. You'll be better off in the end because most times, when we do the 'Plinko,' it fits this box, that fits this box, that fits this box. Then all we're getting is that. And, Tommy Boy, yeah, we're getting the guarantee on the box.

Because I've seen that too, when being involved in stuff that required a lot of different certifications, and it must meet this criteria. Okay, fine. And then I've been teaching stuff before, and they're like, 'Hey, Brian, you're going to go do this section.' I was like, 'Well, why don't you have Bill do it? That guy's got like 10, 10 times the amount of experience that I do! He's, and he's a better instructor at it! Like, he knows that.' Like, 'Yeah, I'm certified to do that, but I only did it a few times in the real world. That guy did it for years!' 'Well, no, he didn't. He doesn't have this. He doesn't have his cert.' And I was like, 'What the f*** does that mean?' And like, 'Well, no...' I was like, 'No, he's...' So, now I'm sitting there with Bill going, 'Hey, how do you want me to teach this? What should I make sure we do? What do you want?' You know what I mean? Like, it's so, it's like, 'This is stupid! This is so stupid!' And it's so frustrating because you're like, 'No, get that! This is not... you shouldn't be bound to this little checkbox thing.' And I know I'm saying that, also saying you do need to have some sort of certification and standard, but how do we... what do we do with this though? How do we determine that? Like, so, but...

Let me ask you to change that or fix that, or just me looking at this problem, 'What can I do about it?' Do you know what I mean? Let me, let me, let me depose you for just a second. Okay. In your history, you've had the experience of being a trainer, an instructor trainer, a gating mechanism for people that had to pass through you to achieve a job somewhere else in the world. Yeah. Okay, that's the ultimate goal of this, because let's talk about professional certifications, a credentialing program that you say, 'Yes, this person can do these skills.' So, was it ever a situation you ran into where there was, for example, a PT (Physical Training) standard?

Oh, God.

Okay, that was part of the certification program before they even took your course. Yeah. And that person showed up. What do you do on the first day of your course? You test them. Have you ever had people fail that test?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, but you kept them in the program, right?

It was not my call, but yes, yes.

Okay, so you understand what you just did? You undermined the credentialing process.

Well, but listen to me. I asked you during that period what were the standards. The reason I asked for the standards is I didn't want to go through your course and get certified to go overseas. I use those in my gym, you get what I'm trying to say, in the morning and say, 'I have to attain that every day.' You know why, Brian? Because I'm so f***ing egotistical that I want to make sure that if somebody says, 'Hey, I bet you couldn't run two miles and whatever,' that I can. You understand what I'm trying to say? McCaskill the other day put out his thing that to 'Reece' and showed the run that he did. I know that run, what I'm trying to say, and I'm about a minute and a half or two minutes off of his time on that run. But at least I'm... Do you understand that is me, is important, is that that I know that in this field of work, my bona fides will stand up against anybody, including PhDs, every day of the week.

Well, and with your example, that one with the PT standards, that would really bother me because you had to sign a piece of paper before you got there saying, 'Yes, I meet or exceed this standard. I've tested myself, given these, because they're given the, given the standards. I've tested myself and I passed.' And they show up, and they're clearly nowhere near passing. So, my attitude is, 'All right, drop them from the course! You've got to go home.' One, that's an integrity violation, and you clearly, it's not like you just pulled a hammy on this run, and you clearly cannot meet this standard. And then it's they whine and cry, 'Well, I didn't...' It's like, 'No, but you signed something saying that.' And then it wasn't close, let's be honest. We're not talking about a little bit. I've seen a guy almost tear an ab muscle during it, and then go, 'What the hell just happened?' And not pass. And I go, 'All right, you're going to do this again. We're keeping you here. You clearly could have passed. You're 50 years old, it was an injury. That's fine. Let's get you healthy, and you have to pass it before you go.'

But that's the idea. And so, we rely on this, and we look at that and we go, 'Well, here's what they're certified to do.' And it's like, 'Man, that doesn't necessarily tell you anything.' So, how do we balance this? Because we do need to have some sort of gating mechanism. For one, you need a certification process in an industry. It's a necessary thing. But the problem is, it's turned into a s*** business for some of these companies and certifying agencies. And that's all they do is they take your money, they put a stamp of approval on it. You're like, 'Well, what the hell? What is this? This is the... this is the guarantee just slapped on the box to make me feel happy. This isn't compliance, it's comfort.'

I think anecdotal has to be empirical. And while I agree that, for example, you can have enough anecdotal information to draw a reasonable conclusion about a program, now we're over 100,000.

Give a quick example of what you mean by anecdotal evidence versus empirical data.

So, there was a time that I could claim that I trained 100 people, then hundreds of people, then a thousand, then thousands, then ten thousand. Now we're over 100,000. And those people that come back again, the people that come back and go, 'I saved a life,' 'This changed my life,' 'I was able to use it.' Those are anecdotes. Now, some of them, yes, have been investigated, and that's like, that's like evidence empirically. That's like a review on a website or for whatever.

Yeah, like that's what anecdotal evidence is, exactly.

I apologize, you meant the etymology and the definition. So, anecdotally means that it hasn't been investigated. It's a person giving you a first-person account of how their experience was. Yeah. Okay. So, but we also have empirical evidence. We also have case studies. And we also have studies from agencies that were outside the wire, that were killing people like it was free. They came back and said, 'This helped us in targeting.' We have all of this body of work.

Okay, so if you don't have that body of work, what do you have? And if all you're throwing me is certificates, I would be suspicious. If you have anecdotal evidence, which is great, and you've had a couple hundred happy customers, it's great. But if every one of them was a white belt or a private or a brand new something... Brian, tell me what it takes, and I'm not trying to be pedantic here, what's it take to take a young Marine and get them 'moto' about something, right? 'Dirty moto.' Do you hear what I'm saying? So, you haven't breached a door or fired off... remember those old M1 Garand grenades that were on the end of the barrel that you could shoot off, and some guy in the armory found a bunch, and then you come back and what do you go? 'Oh, it's the greatest course I've ever been!' Well, that's what... Shut up for a minute and take a look at the big picture, right?

Yeah, you need to, and that's why I always look for, I want the guy or girl in the back, the 'sage greybeard' that has their arms crossed the whole time, like going, 'What is this crap?' That's always my goal right there. I want that person to give the best review they've ever given in their entire life. Yeah, that's the one.

But listen, they don't always... listen, value added is different. I've heard people do this. 'We got all fives on every review out of a unified scale.' Okay. And one guy gave us a four one time, and remember, we sought that person out in the class and we go, 'Why did you give it a four?' And he said, 'Because my training instructor said never give a course a five. That's an unreasonable standard, doesn't it?' And so, you just f***ed us on all fives because of that. Or, a person that was hot in the room. Or the person says, 'You know what? This is the other end of the spectrum. You can get something from every training course.' Okay, yeah, but that's a sellout again. That's a fundamental attribution error.

Just because you go, 'I don't want to name the city,' but there was a guy from an organization that's really important to police that came down and looked at the training and was like, 'Yeah, but it's kind of expensive. It's clearly head and shoulders above all the other stuff, but these guys will do it for a third of the price.' Yeah, because those guys were called 'students.' Just because you graduated from a course doesn't mean you know the course material. And that person still sticks in my craw, not Steve McCraw, but still sticks in my craw, because it's like a horses*** standard.

Yeah, well, that's your personal standard. That's the other issue that this turns into, right? It's the, 'I'm going to give your four-hour instructor certification.' It's like, 'Okay, so I, you're going to teach me, Greg, right now, and then tomorrow, tomorrow I'm going to turn around and teach it.' Okay, that's fine for, 'This is how you properly put on a gas mask,' right? Or some menial task.

Something that I don't know, it's very questionable. Like, you, what happens is, when you do that is, we call that the 'third grade teaching the second grade.' It's like, 'Wait a minute, you don't take... when first graders graduate to second grade, they don't turn around and start teaching the first grade,' right? You still have a teacher for that. Like, you can't, you can't do that. You have to progress to that level. But because we're such a, 'Oh, we've got to get them certified! They've got to know how to do this! Here, I know how to do this, now you go do it.' And that's fine again. So, let's follow that small, menial task, or something that's simple: how to turn on this f***ing computer and log into your account. But when it's something serious, like, you can't rely on that. But a small, menial task to the guy flying into Gunnison, that's a four-hour degree that he has to have to land at that humidity and whatever. Okay, I want him to take that. Yes. So, again, we're not trying to be pedantic. We're not trying to put down somebody.

My thing is, look, what if your career path doesn't require a degree program in something, but it has soft and hard skills that you should be an expert at? I would rather somebody come to me with their resume and show me that each year, for example, shoot, move, and communicate. So, everybody knows what I'm talking about when I say that. So, let's say those are big buckets, right? Every year, I can see that you took a course in a 'shoot,' a 'move,' and a 'communicate,' and you've been doing that for 17 years, in addition to being held in high standard as an instructor on the road and all that other stuff. I look at that and I go, 'Holy crap!' Because we used to say on the road, 'You're only as good as your last arrest.' We didn't mean that you went out there fishing, Brian. We meant that you were, you were still valid, you were still paying attention to what the streets needed, and you were going out there and setting the standard. So, the idea is that just because, like, even a podcast... And people are going to go, 'Wow, you're dichotomous!' No, I'm not. There are a lot of podcasts out there, just people talking about petting their cat and crocheting and all that. Yeah, Brian, if it makes you feel good, that's fantastic, right? I'm not going to go to that person and ask them what they think about the Uvalde massacre. Do you see what I'm saying? So, that the certification, 'Do you understand this better than somebody else?' And that certification can be verbal when it comes from the right people. So, if you go to University of Central Blank, and that person says, 'Yeah, they've worked on these projects for us before. This is a subject matter expert, and we hold them in high esteem.' Brian, that's it. And so, I feel that it's less important for me to have to go to somebody who goes, 'Oh, well, we'll review your curriculum,' when you've already got those stamps.

Well, that goes into the rep, and that's ego too. Well, yeah, but it's really about, it's a good point. And yeah, I know, someone could say, 'Oh, you're just being egotistical about the stuff you've done.' It's like, 'Well, yeah, but it's also been through this s*** vetting process.' You know what I mean? And that's what comes back to rigor: what is it that someone's going through? Like, you just brought up all these examples of all of these people who've been studying and doing this stuff their whole lives, so they're already at the top tier level. Then they sit around and go, 'Okay, is the juice worth the squeeze? What is this about? We're going to proceed, we're going to poke and prod this to find flaws,' right? So, 'We're going to find out what's wrong. We're going to see if we can poke holes. We're going to see if we can sink the ship,' right? 'We're going to stress test it.' Right? 'Well, hey, we stress-tested your stuff, and if it's still floating, man, there it is! All right, so it's good, head out to open water.'

But that's not what happens a lot. And they can be confusing. So, if I don't know any better, Greg, I'm going to go, 'Well, here, I know this International Association of Whatever, and they certified it, so it's good.' It's like, 'What the f*** is that?'

So, a perfect example of that: International Association of Chiefs of Police, International Association of the Sheriffs—you know, butchering their names. There are organizations that are out there that have stood the test of time, Brian. They've been around as long as police agencies have been around. And you know what? They're the best and the brightest. And we go to those agencies when we need a SME (Subject Matter Expert) to ask a specific question that's outside of our ken because we stick in our lane, right? So, those organizations are fully accredited. They don't... it's like our process is hard to accredit because we are HBP RNA. So, if somebody claims that they can come back to us, but we can't go backwards because there is no backwards, right? But those organizations, Brian, they've been around a good long time. It'll take you, if that doesn't pass a smell test, it'll take you five minutes on the phone or 15 minutes on the internet, or vice versa, I don't know if people call anymore, to find out if those agencies are legitimate.

Generally, with the instructors that we deal with, it takes 15 or 20 minutes on the phone to talk to them to figure out that these people are legitimate. And certainly, when we meet them, I use that standard all the time, Brian: 'If you were in a Denny's and you heard a person behind at the other booth talking about your skill set, how long would it take for you to figure out that that person was a sham?' And we get that all the time. Like, I'll give a great example that is close to home. Brian, you're not certified as a law enforcement officer in any state, but you've worked with law enforcement in almost every state and internationally.

Yeah, yeah. And specifically on roadside-specific training. Exactly.

And so, the idea is that while you were never on patrol on the road, you can speak to experiences in that realm intelligently and as a subject matter expert in a very defined, very, very limited...

Thank you. Yeah. Like where you can talk about more with those crowds. Exactly.

Because you... But the idea of that pairing and of what we do is, we always stay in our lane. Now, we know instructors that are out there teaching cop agencies right now and never been on the road as a cop, and have none of those experiences or certifications or bona fides or vetting. So, that agency is getting something cheaper. And I'll agree with that guy, it's a lot cheaper, but you know what you're getting? You're getting something that again is somebody that went to the movie and is coming back. And, you know, I equate it to Melville. You know, 'I read a book by Melville, but I didn't like the ending, so I rewrote it and I shoved the pages in there, and I took out his pages and I said, "It's my s*** now!"' Yeah, it's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. So, I just say, be suspicious of that as the only factor when you're making a decision because there are programs right now that are coming out of the woodwork because the government is spending more money now in police training than they've ever done. This f***ing has reported...

Exactly. The opportunity. They opened up so much federal funding for local places.

Anybody that jokes, that does anything, that can say, 'Like, Brian, I use the goat yoga.' And I'm not trying to piss anybody off. Whatever you do to improve your mental health, your physical... not stick a gun in your mouth, is great stuff. But there's a hundred of those programs that are in front of one of our programs now. Why? Because the money's out there, and everybody's competing for the same amount of money.

No, and I think that's the question to ask is, when someone says their thing is certified, you go, 'Certified by who? Certified for what? What was the standard for certification? And what went into their certifying process of your course?' I mean, that's very simple. When someone says, 'Oh, we're certified by the blah, blah, blah,' 'Okay, what's their process?' 'Let me go find out. I'm going to go call them and see, "Well, what do you do to vet these?"' And they go, 'Well, they fill out the information, they send you, send a check every year.' And I go, 'Okay, so nothing.' That's not vetting. That's not vetting at all. So, anyone can claim that they're certified in anything. What all these stupid f***ing companies do is they create their own certification. They just go, 'Oh, we're going to certify you in our thing!' And it's like, 'Okay, yeah, but here's their standard, their standard's logical right here.' So, it withstands the educational rigor. 'Here's the thing: that cert, man, it's only good for 12 months, so you're going to have to come back in 12 months to get re-certified,' which means I get paid again for the money. Like, it's so ridiculous, and how people don't see this is beyond me.

Because, you know, we do that on stuff like, 'Well, you guys, do you guys certify?' I said, 'I go, "Well, what do you need for your agency? Do you need us like a completion certificate? Yeah, of course, you attended the course."' 'Yeah, but do you have different levels?' Like, 'Yeah, we do have different levels, depending on which course you showed up to is which one you got, and depending on your own experience is what you took out of this course.' So, yeah, it's already built in. 'What do you mean?' 'Well, that guy over there got a lot more out of this than you because he has a lot more experience, and he wanted to take it to the next level, so he did. With him, with you, that's different.' And people go, 'Well, I want to put it in this box, like Level A, Level B, Level C.' That's like, that's junk! That's your problem too. That's not the way the world works.

Well, yeah, unless you're talking about like skydiving licenses. You have to have X amount of jumps, rated by this many people, and you have to have an instructor that signs off. But there's a specific number, so I can say I have my C license or I have my B license. Okay, well, that's different, right? Now, that is different. That's what you've got to point to. So, take a look at martial arts, for example. In martial arts, to get a degree program, there are belt mills, certificate mills, right? Where you can go and the guy can tell you, when you first sign up, they can tell you, 'This is when you'll be a black belt,' from the time you start. 'Now, this is when you'll be a black belt.' I love that. First of all, that's ingenious. That's what we're talking about.

I will also tell you, because I know about the dude ranching and guest ranching industry, I know about whitewater rafting and those type of things. The person that is leading out your horse ride is probably a college kid that wrote 'Before That' (perhaps referring to a manual or guide) that got hired by that agency, and they said, 'This is Trail Number One,' 'This is Trail Number Two.' You get what I'm trying to say? Now, some go further than that and say, 'Hey, you've got a first aid, you've got to have this, you've got to have whatever.' We had cowboy boot camp, we had emergency situations, we acted out practical application, what happens if the rider loses a hat in the wind and then their horse rears and they get dumped and all that. Brian, you know why? Because we knew that the liability for not doing that was astronomical. The kid that's taking your family down on the whitewater rafting, if that person isn't certified and experienced and tested, I would ask them before we go, 'Hey, college kid, how many times have you done this?' Because we... you understand that the unequal standard.

So, we're saying that for this police course on community policing, we demand this, but when I go on my vacation whitewater rafting through the Class III rapids with this young kid, we don't ask what their certification is. That's the ridiculousness that I'm talking about. I'm saying that what you should do is, in every situation that you endeavor, that you're going to go into... I mean, you don't go to White Castle and go, 'Hey, how long have you been a fry cook?' You take that for granted. But if it's something where you... I can't think of anything more dangerous than taking your family on a horse ride or a whitewater rafting during vacation, and nobody ever asks. Nobody asks who certifies the rope on your hang gliding, whatever thing is, right? And I'm sure there's an industry out there. Somebody right now is going, 'We do!' Yeah, I get it. But that doesn't mean that that person complied. That doesn't mean that that place that you went to has that.

And I always ask for certificates. Remember when we were on that elevator, and it says, '22 people would fit in that elevator,' Brian? And you and I took a photo because there's no way 22 Brians wouldn't have fit in that elevator if you stacked them up. But somebody certified that, didn't they? Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, 'Stop talking s***. Put up or shut up!'

Well, that's the biggest thing. It's, 'Can you actually do this?' And the problem with that is, you don't ever get tested in that until something goes wrong. And then all of a sudden, now it reveals all these holes and these seams and gaps and these presumed capabilities. And it's like that... Our problem with that is, we're all waiting for the catastrophic event to see how much we f***ing suck. And I'm not okay with that. That's below standard. That is absolutely not it. And it's, 'Well, this is how we've been doing things.' No, that doesn't... you can't rely on that. You have to continue to evolve.

And a certification, it just means you've met the bare minimum standard. And if you don't know what that certification was and who it was done by, then it's meaningless. And if you do get certified, you have to be able to say, 'Well, this is what that means I can do. This is what I can't do. I'm only a Level A right now, so I can't perform that procedure on that patient because I don't have the time. And yeah, I know how to do it, but I'm not allowed to because I don't have the appropriate training for it.' And we have to know what those capabilities and limitations are, because my biggest fear with all of this stuff, and we're already seeing it in a bunch of different places, especially that Uvalde shooting, it's like, 'Oh, well, we've got all the patches, we've got all the cool guy gear. Oh, we just don't know how to use any of it.' And it's just, this is what happens when you rely on, 'Let's just buy a new thing and let's get everyone certified in how to hold a ballistic shield,' you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, Brian, I was frustrated. It's frustrating.

Follow this critical thinking drill for a second: concealed weapons carry. So, I don't care what your view is on concealed weapons or weapons in general, but there are standards that you have to achieve in some locations. Some have none. Some have, 'You need a letter from the sheriff's office,' or 'You need to get fingerprinted and you need to turn in a $20...' whatever. But some actually have, like, there's one, I can't think of the state that I just happened to be looking at, and they said for their course of fire, 'It's five shots, three from the draw, two to the head,' this, that, they had all these standards that you had to do to get it. And I know there's other places you show up for an hour, they talk about gun safety, and you get it. So, there is no standard to concealed weapons permit. Some agencies add a standard, or states or cities. Okay, but that doesn't mean that because you're a concealed weapons permit holder that you're going to be as good as somebody that's carried a weapon that's a retired SWAT guy. Right?

So, stop presupposing that all of those things are true, just like cops. So, there are 15,000 cop agencies in America. Project that out to how many cops you get. Guess what? It's the luck of the draw sometimes, Brian, when the cop that shows up at your scene has gone through the basic police academy, the FTO, and now they're out on the road, and they do something stupid. And we see that. We see cops make mistakes because they're humans, and they're put into an egregious situation that nobody else has ever seen before, and then, guess what, it turns into a lawsuit. So, apply that to the same logic: how many emergency rooms are there in the United States? How many doctors are there that work there? When you go walking in, it's the same thing, it's the luck of the draw. You might have gotten someone that they're on their third hospital because they've been terminated twice, and they're on watch because their work is so bad that they've been fired before. But look at how much... but there's such a shortage for doctors, so this place hired them. And you know, that's who you're walking in and seeing. They're going, 'No, you're fine,' and you're literally dying right there.

So, I apply that to anywhere you go. I mean, it's the same thing. Someone making a delivery at your house or your restaurant or whatever. Is that the brand new delivery driver that's going to run into your loading dock and break it? You got it? Or is it the guy or girl who's been doing it forever that you can see does like a 37-point turn in like two seconds, and they know how to maneuver that vehicle? It's no different, right? So, that standard is just... I look at it as, you've met some bare minimum of whatever that standard is. You've met the absolute bare minimum that I should be able to read or look at somewhere to see what that minimum standard is. And then I have to assume you can only do that minimum, right? I can't assume that you have greater powers than you do. I can't assume you have greater abilities than you actually do. That's where we get those presumed capabilities. So, I just think individually, what you can do is really question what that means, right? What is this certificate?

Yeah. And I think you have to, Brian. And I think the reason you have to is like, television is a perfect example, if people still watch TV. I don't know about all the Hulu and YouTube and streaming s***. But I do know that every person that looks good, that's a compelling speaker or whatever, is on TV with a house renovation television. Yeah, for a cooking show now. Nobody watches PBS but me, and nobody watches This Old House but me. I like the craftsmen showing you their time. Okay, so that's me. Then all of a sudden they've got 'the best baking champion.' You can't say 'best baking champion' when it's anybody that applies. And they say, 'Yeah, but they've fought to get here!' No, they didn't. They were the bake queen for the PTA in their village, and then they got... Brian, they've got to make a TV show to sell. So, everything they do can't be 'the international best.' You see what I'm trying to say? And then cooking, they established a standard, and now they create people that are 'tuned in.'

Great. That's a great point.

Why you have a lot of people doing this stuff too. The home flipping shows are the perfect example because what happens then, and let's say you watch one of the shows, and some of those people on the show, they're just, whatever, it's a TV show. And some, like, they've been doing this for a very long time, and they really know what the hell they're doing. The problem is, it's a reality show, and they're having fun. So, what does everyone watching it do? 'Oh, I could do that! Look how easy it is! They just come in and go, "Hey, let's do this, and let's pick him!"' And then they start doing it, and you fail miserably! Like, dude, that person's been doing that. They know the market. They understand how to do that. They've been doing it for decades. So, you're going to walk in because you thought it was easy because you saw them do it. If someone makes something look easy, it's probably because they're really, really good at what they're doing.

Exactly. So, go back to the example about the medicine and about the diet and the warning on the bottom. So, when you are going to sell one of those homes, they spend a couple of grand for a person to stage the home.

Yeah, they put in the carpet and the lights and the candles, furniture.

Furniture, yeah. And all of those things are going away the minute that you sign with the bank. They also tell you what? 'Well, it's nice to bake some cookies before somebody comes over.' Certain smells.

Yeah.

So, Brian, that's fundamental attribution error. Those pillows and that bed and that bedspread have nothing to do with the infrastructure of that house, and the water, and the electricity, and all the things that really matter. So, isn't that in essence what we're talking about here? That go back to the good bones of the training that you're out there searching for. Take the time. I used to tell people, 'Take as much time searching for the dojo as you imagine that you're going to invest in getting your degree in martial arts.' Why? Because, Brian, it's one step on that road. It's going to change your entire life if it's good training. If the training is worth it, it's worth it to you for you to go and research who these folks are. We have to earn it every day. Every time we show up, Brian, we've hit the long ball before, right? So, we can't show up and just phone it in. We've got to hit that long ball every time we show up. So, that's the difference. That's the team that you want to go out and you want to research and invest a couple of bucks.

No, the home one is a perfect example. I lucked out at our place when we bought it because when we were going through the process, and they were inspecting the home, it happened to be just like a torrential downpour overnight during the day. And so, guess what it does when that happens out here? It exposes everything! 'Yep! Hey, oh, wow, look at this! They didn't... this needs to be redone. Hey, this needs to be recalled. Hey, this part, there's a slow leak right here that you need to show.' Like, so, obviously, by pure luck and chance, but that allowed it. I loved it. And the inspector showed up, and I was like, 'Hey, it's going to suck for you, but...' He's like, 'But you're pretty happy this happened?' I was like, 'Yep!' And because they get to poke and prod.

I mean, so, that's kind of the idea is, can I stress test this? So, the home when it was staged, and it's sunny, it's nice, everything was perfect, right? But now, when you start digging below that surface, you go, 'Well, hang on, these panels... this electrical panel isn't marked correctly. Hey, they didn't shore up this. Hey, this isn't to code.' And you wouldn't know that unless you test it. You went around there and dug in and inspected it. So, I think that's the important thing to do is not rely on that. And when you are the person with the certifications, you have to be able to articulate what it is you're certified in and what that process is. And this is what it means. What does that actually mean? And if it means, 'Dude, I met the bare minimum standard,' 'Hey, great! Now you know that. Now, you, who you're dealing with, knows that.' And...

Yeah, but that should be your starting point.

Yes, exactly. Because then it clears up any of the anxiety, and now I am comfortable. Because if you come in like, like the... I don't want to name names again, because, oh my gosh, you know where the bodies are buried. But in the industry, when a person comes in and you say, 'Hey, I want to change this dimmer switch or rheostat or do this or that,' and they go, 'Okay, I've got to pull a permit for that.' And then they look at you, 'Or not.' Yeah, what I'm trying to say, 'No, no, no, that's not me. I'm the permit guy. I'm the guy that's going to go and pay for that, and I want to see your license and make sure that you're the guy.' In Chicago, they used to just say, 'Hey, how about I buy you lunch instead?' 'Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, lunch sounds good.' 'How much does lunch cost around these days?' 'Oh, lunch costs about $400 these days.' 'Okay, have a nice lunch. Here's your purchase.' No, but you get what I'm talking about.

And the idea is that there are puppy mills, so obviously there are certificate mills. Yeah. There are training mills. There are training organizations that you go to, 'Oh, we do that too!' 'Oh, yeah? Well, what kind of training do you specialize in?' 'This!' 'Because how the hell do you do that?' Because actual academia, actual college institutions, they've become those. They just go, 'Well, you just sign up. Basically, we'll take anyone because they want to make money.' And then everyone has that degree from there, and it's like, 'Well, it doesn't mean anything anymore then. It's not prestigious.' I agree, if anyone's there. But we've talked about gating mechanisms before. But, you know, this one was just, the Tommy Boy example, I go back to it, from the beginning. Go click the link in the episode details and watch exactly what we mean about the guarantee being on the box. Is it there for... I like what you said, is it there for comfort or compliance? Because if it's there for compliance and it meets it, and it complies with it, it's great. If it's there because it makes you feel better, that's not going to help you.

So, what we don't have, folks, we don't have a coin. We don't have a hat. We don't have a polo. We don't have a logo. We have a logo design, yeah, but not like that, not like the Konate Group on TV where you get the water bottle and get the bag for your people. We don't have schwag. But we do have a killer student guide. And I guess...

Exactly. That's your... that's your certificate in our course. It's called, 'Let me just, let me see your student guide.' And the ones that are covered in notes and arrows and diagrams and this... like, 'Hey, you got, you got an A+ man!' The ones that are still as blank as one I gave it to you, 'Oh, I know how you did in this course.'

I'd rather bleed on the mat than bleed on the street, right? That's why we make it hard, and we're going to keep our standards high. And our certificate, folks, is every happy client that you can call that we leave behind. And every one of them, call them and ask them how it's changed their life. And I hate that that almost feels like the sales pitch, Brian, but I'm telling you that...

No, it's like the company, it's, 'Oh, yeah, of course, come get some!' But I mean, I also want to make sure that we balance it with that flight into Gunnison. I'd rather have them cancel that flight because they don't have the quality, someone pushed their limits, then somebody go, 'F*** it, I'll do it. I'll hear it.' 'Yeah, let me try.' You see what I'm saying? Not interested. That 'let me try' attitude is why there are a bunch of dead kids in a school. Before the 'let me try' attitude is okay to you when you're trying to open a jar of pickles in your kitchen, not not when you're trying to fly a plane, and that's going to be on YouTube with you going to the emergency room, cut because you used a hammer on a jar. Right.

Well, well, I think that kind of covers everything we want to hit on this. And, I think if we could get people to stay away from these certificate mills, I would love that. But if they make it so simple and easy and effective, and if it's that easy to do, then maybe it's not worth the price you're paying for that certificate. I mean, honestly, if that, if that's what the value is. But, anything else to add at the end of that, Greg?

Yeah, just the weight of your resume isn't what is going to be judged. If you're just going by pounds of certificates, I guess that would be a good thing. But the one-ounce intervention that you did, this is much more than all that other hocus pocus. It's how you carry yourself and how you act and how you behave and how you work. That's how your peers think about you.

Yeah, that's the other thing. And I'm not talking about your, the ridiculous peers that are also certificate mill denizens. I'm talking about how do the peers in the world that do what you do think of what you do and how you, how you respond to things? Absolutely.

All right, well, that's all I have. Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget, reach out to us at thehumanbehaviorpodcast@gmail.com with any questions or ideas for podcast episodes. Please share this with your friends, and don't forget that training changes behavior.