L.O.G. 171 Insider Threats with RaSheed Lemon

Alright, well, good morning, everyone, and welcome RaSheed Lemon. RaSheed, thank you so much for coming on here.

Oh, you're welcome. No problem at all.

Yeah, so I appreciate you coming on. I know I'll give you a quick little intro there for everyone listening right now at the beginning. But we kind of want to jump into a little bit. You and Greg have a bit of history together, and how you ran into each other, which is kind of why we had you on to talk to you and have you on the show. But I'd love to, if you kind of want to start from there, I want to throw it to you and tell us kind of how you ran into Greg and what was going on.

Okay, yeah, I got deployed to Afghanistan in 2012. And when I got there, they started—we had a lot of issues out there with insider threats on the actual bases. We had—I was actually the DCG Ops NCOIC (Deputy Commanding General Operations Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge). That was the Deputy Command General's NCOIC Operations for the three-star general that was actually there. But they actually assigned me to the Chief of Staff, a Colonel that I had worked for. And they figured out that my civilian job, I was in law enforcement, and they ended up asking me to help with some things. And they pretty much told me to go to a program where they sent me. They, you know, it was no problem, and they sent me over. And I started working with Greg at that time when I actually got a chance to meet him. Didn't know exactly what I was going to do. But they told me I was going to learn some things about insider threat to help mitigate the issues that we were having, and possibly take this and keep its teaching all around Afghanistan. But that obviously changed when we were there. Yeah, go ahead.

And I remember, first of all, RaSheed, Brian did not get the notice of—yeah, it's a Monday. Brian's a little bit behind the power curve, so Brian, you remember with Combat Hunter in Iraq, it was a different feel. I hit the ground in Iraq, it's very kinetic. The highest you go up is maybe a battalion or brigade commander, embed with them, move around. And then Afghanistan was completely different because I get to Afghanistan and I'm meeting with ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) General Staff, and generals of the Army, and coalition nations, and they go, "Oh, give this guy anything he wants." And so the reality of the fact was that then I came down through and met this young E-6, and he goes, "Nah, we're not getting any of that overhead cover or support. We're going to have to kind of build our tribe." Isn't that a fair assessment, RaSheed? It was a very different view from the ground.

It really was. It was really interesting because when they brought us out there to—it was a camp (Kaya) we were at. And there was just a lot going on, and they had us in this room, and I'm seeing all these people. And a lot of people took the fact that I was E-6, I didn't have any kind of experience, or whatever the case would be, because I was actually with a Major who was there. Major Chase, I believe it was, and he was with my group. But it was—it was really an interesting start. And then learning your history was what really intrigued me when we actually started the project and the stories that you all told.

Yeah, so that was one of those kind of tough times for everyone listening. It was like you had this major insider threat problem, right? So you had different Afghan soldiers that U.S. soldiers, sailors, and Marines were training. And then one of them kind of ended up killing some of them, murdering them, or other Afghans. So they called them the "green-on-blue" incidents or "green-on-green," which is obviously—I mean, any type of insider threat I always think is so much worse than an external threat because they're part of the team, they're part of this group, right? And so, imagine trying to have to go to work and you have a job to do, and you have a training mission to do, and you've got to worry about the person that you're actually training. That's just so incredibly difficult to deal with. And then it started happening a little bit, and then the Army, we had most of the command, and the Marine Corps as well, but overall kind of said in-country, "Whoa, this is—this is like an all-stop. This is something we need to address right now because this is going to tear us apart from what's inside." So, now, did you just kind of happen to fall into that because—just tell us a little bit about your law enforcement career. I know that helped. And when you do that back and forth, you have those other skills. Like, people don't know that. They're just like, "Oh, you're just like an E-6, what are you doing here?" It's like, "No, no, man, I've got a lot, a lot that I've been doing in my life."

Yeah, yeah, they miscalculated when I came on the scene. But I was actually a paramedic for some years with Richmond and surrounding areas. And I got myself into some things. It was a high-performance EMS system. But in Richmond, at the time when I had worked for them, they actually had like extra duties. It wasn't attached to the city, it was actually a contract. But what ended up happening was we, nine times out of ten, we were the first people on the scene in Richmond. There were a lot of murders and things going on, so I got to see a lot of stuff. But we ended up with the Forensics Department for the state. They recognized that we were getting there, so they put some of us through some special training. So this kind of got me started into the law enforcement part. And then I got into tactical medical kind of thing. So I was one of the tactical medics that was on the actual ambulance that when Richmond's SWAT team went out, we would actually do stuff, but I wasn't armed or anything of that nature. We just supported. We had vests and all that kind of stuff when we went to the scene.

From there, I got hired. I actually—now let y'all know, I started with the Marine Corps because I wanted to get into law enforcement. And I started to apply for all these police departments all in the Richmond area, and I kept getting denied and denied and denied. They said, "You don't have any experience." I said, "Well, how am I going to get experience if you don't hire me?" So I joined the Marine Corps. And I got, obviously, some experience, came back, and started my career again. From there, ended up getting on with the Virginia State Police as a Trooper, because a lot of times as a medic, we would actually go to car wrecks. And then I saw these State Police guys, and I said, "Hey, I like that." So I wanted to get on with these guys. So I ended up getting hired with the State Police. That was probably—that was in 1996. So they actually gave me a strong start in law enforcement. And after my first couple of years there, I got on four FBI Task Forces as an undercover agent. So I did a lot of undercover work. I worked—I did a lot of interdiction stuff, working with drugs, and going around. I went through a special DEA course to help me to do some things with that, and I wanted to get on to DEA.

And so, one of the colonels, believe it or not, when I was in the Marine Corps, he actually worked for the federal government, and he tried to get—he took me to the office over there. The DEA was impressed, but unfortunately, I did not finish my degree, so I couldn't obviously pursue that. I started working on my degree online there, doing the online stuff. And ended up—when 9/11 happened, my shift partner was on midnight. That's how I got where I'm at now. He was a salty Trooper, and he said, "Hey," he said, "Lemon," he said, "Yeah, what's going on?" He says, "Hey, they didn't take me." I said, "What are you talking about? They didn't take me?" He said, "They didn't hire me." I said, "Who?" He said, "The Sky Marshal." I said, "What in the world is the Sky Marshal?" I was like, "What is that?" He told me the history about it and everything. He said, "Take your butt home," and he said, "I told him you're going to send a resume." I'm like, "Okay." So he said, "Take your butt home and do this and send it into this phone number." And I did. Two days later, literally, I got a FedEx package with some tickets to go to Atlantic City, New Jersey, excuse me, and to interview. So this is October 2nd of 2001. And I went ahead, and there were—they were doing 50 people a day. So I was one of the first hundred to be interviewed for the job. And I ended up getting hired, but they lost my package. They sent it to Oklahoma, where the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) headquarters were, because originally our agency was part of the FAA. And from there, got hired on, actually started in March. And I've been here ever since. Moved up through the ranks, became a supervisor. I flew for 10 years, got close to 33 million miles of flying. And became a supervisor around 2012, right before I got deployed to Afghanistan. And I got promoted again in 2020 as an ASAC (Assistant Special Agent in Charge). So I'm the second person in charge of the field office here in Baltimore. That's kind of...

That's incredible. So that's one of those careers. That's what I love. That's why I tell people, you know, someone—it's like I told even my little brother before he went in the military, and I was like, "Hey, you want one word of advice? Just volunteer for everything." Everything, meaning like, just when someone says, "Hey, I need someone for this, go do it," because you're going to meet someone, and you're going to make an impression, and then that's going to open a door for you later. Whereas when you're just staying in your lane, you would just go do whatever. And sure enough, you sound like that. You know what else reminds me of our buddy Jim, Greg, where everyone's just like, "Hey, we like you, come do this," and he's like, "Okay." And then he went from like, martial arts to police officer, to Green Beret, to this. I mean, it was just like—it's one of those same things. That's an absolutely incredible story. I like hearing those because it tells you all about the person. It's like, "Okay, you're someone that people want to work with." You know what I mean? So that's really—that's really cool. And he's still doing it now.

And Brian, I want to bring RaSheed back to a moment in Afghanistan. Most people that get deployed don't understand what it's truly like, specifically if you're a civilian that's on a mission. And the idea is, you have to go through all of these things. Like, for example, you have to go through laundry and have an ID for laundry and get a ticket. You're in a war zone, but you have to go in and you get a laundry bag, and you're like, "What the hell is this?" And then you have to go, and you have to go get these different ID cards, and the color of the outside of the ID card, and the level on the band of your security, where you can go. All of that stuff is regulated, even down to which DFAC (Dining Facility) you can eat in. So, Brian, my first memory of my first trip to Afghanistan, one of many with the Combat Hunter, was being in a yurt with the Mongolian Air Force. And I'm sitting there going, "This is absolutely horrible." And so, each time that I went back with the Marine Corps for Combat Hunter in Afghanistan, it got much better. And then all of a sudden, ISAF comes and says, "Hey, Houston, we have a problem! Can we gear the specific answer towards insider threats?" And I get back, and I'm going to a yurt with the Mongolian Air Force again. And so, apparently, they requested me because I was internationally eating at the international DFAC and going to the bathroom—just hot water for the first three weeks on the ground because nothing was right. And all of a sudden, this young E-6 comes in—and you weren't young, okay, but you were an E-6—and he comes in and he goes, "You must be Greg Williams!" I'm like, "Well, look around, who else would be?" And Brian, I got to tell you, we hit it off. And you'll remember that we hit it off at hello. And the problem was, we were two old, crusty road vets that were copper, that couldn't get anywhere with the soldiers, even though you also had the Civil Affairs and the U.S. Army Reserve and the military background.

Yeah, yeah. And it was—it was really interesting there because, even when they put me over there, there was some back-stuff that was happening that y'all weren't aware of because they were fighting over where they wanted me to go. And a part of that fight was they wanted me to do force protection, the other part was doing my job. And then I had a—it was a—he was actually a Lieutenant Colonel. He was—he was terrible, he was a terrible leader. And it was just, he made my life miserable. But I stuck with the program, and I just remembered, I had to make myself a little more valuable from what we were learning there. And when he saw that I was like this shiny toy kind of thing, it just—it was just terrible. But I still went to the training, got what I needed to get out of there.

But I can tell you this, the stuff I learned from Combat Hunter, because I had a connection with the Marine Corps—I was in the Marine Corps 15 years—and then I had this other experience here. And it was like, "This is what I want to do." I wanted to help soldiers, because just like you, any law enforcement officer on the road, you want to help people do this. But this is more close to home where we were with everything that was going on there. And I didn't want it to happen again, especially to me while I was there, because we didn't know who was who. And I just thought that the training was phenomenal. Didn't realize when we started teaching about like the psychology behind everything, and the even the biological aspects, like the hippocampus. Never forget that kind of stuff, you know? And the "clues and cues," and "clues," and "scenes and gaps." All of those things stuck with me throughout the years. And not only was I able to use that for what we did there, I was able to use it in everything else. And the truth be told, everything I learned with you guys there actually helped launch my career, even when I got back home from another level, because I was going to just be a Federal Marshal, continue to fly and do whatever. But I wanted to be able to utilize some of the experiences and things that I've learned to help my agency and help our guys do better. Unfortunately, it didn't work out like that like I wanted to, but I think the biggest thing I got was inspiration from it. So I never forget that, and I never forgot that.

Well, and Brian, I don't know if you know this, that when RaSheed and I were together, many of the places we were teaching were CONACs (Combined Operations and Communications Centers). We were teaching on the floor in the airport at Kandahar Airfield, or some other location that we had a makeshift and embedded with our training where our Afghan coalition partners—many of whom were the likely suspects during that time of the insider threat attack. And you'll remember, not in 2012, because 2012 was a—our butts were on fire. But then all of a sudden, in 2013, RaSheed and I are still bouncing around with these little places. And if you remember, Omar came out and issued the threat, and the threat was literally, "They find these guys and come at them with everything that you've got." And here we are in Afghanistan with prices on our head. And so I kept pointing to him going, "He's from Baltimore, I'm from Detroit, I understand. But RaSheed is the real enemy on that."

Yeah, he called that "the drawn sword of God." I never forget that. Right before the "drawn sword of God." And that was—and I was even learning a little bit more about the Taliban and how they operated. But they actually were called bringing the fighting season a month earlier than they normally did, the timeframe. So I was trying to understand all these particular dynamics. But you're right, you know, and it was—we didn't know who we were teaching or what was going on.

But even after they—I'll tell you this, the other part was after we had left, they had told me, "Take all that stuff." And I was understanding the contracts, and I didn't really understand how all that worked. They wanted me to take your material, basically plagiarize it, which they pretty much forced me to do, and create another program. And I remember you were upset about that part, about how they kind of took all the hard work that you made and they did it another way without really giving you the credit. But I always made sure that I gave the credit back to where it came from, only because I didn't—I didn't feel that was right. That was an integrity issue. And so that was—and that came from that Lieutenant Colonel who was pushing that thing. So I always made sure that I gave the credit back to where it came from, and I was a student that was learning at that point in time.

You were an incredible student, first of all. And you were also a great aide in everything I did, from my personal security to me pointing out that you were the one in uniform, so if somebody was going to be killed, it would better be you than me as I was civilian hanging them out there in front. But listen, RaSheed, I've had a long, rich history of having people plagiarize my work and steal from me. And every one of the military commands that I worked under literally told people, "Steal his thumb drives, get any of his discs, any of his notes, whatever you got, you got the same briefing." And you know, back then it really bothered me because I had no money, I was a nobody. And here I'm taking the same risks as everybody else. We—you remember the infamous Afghan pizza explosion across the courtyard from where we were teaching, and we had to wait till the smoke cleared in the classroom, and the bodies were out before. Yeah, so we all had the same risk. But Brian, you knew that too. You knew the Marine Corps had done that, you knew that every one of the other forces had done that. And you know, RaSheed, now looking back—looking back at all the stolen information and everything else, it's like, you know what? At the end of the day, it helped save lives. At the end of the day, it built careers, it opened doors, it allowed people to do things, even your great story, you know?

Yeah, but at the end of the day, right is right, wrong is wrong. You know? And I think that—I think that, when you look at serving, you still have some sort—I mean, they preach the leadership, and part of it is our integrity and everything. So we—I believe in those things. And that kind of bothered me, but I made sure that I at least gave the—you know, pointed back from where I was able to do, you know, "This wasn't me, it's something I learned from the individuals that actually had it." So I always pointed back, and I always kept the name and email. I know we kind of lost contact over the years. But the good part of it was that when y'all had left, they had me write this whole program. So I really had to rename it, they called it something else. So I ended up calling it Advanced Insider Threat Detection (AITD), is what we ended up naming it. And they literally sent me all over Afghanistan. I mean, after the fact, we counted—I guess, all the time—trained over 3,000 contractors and service members and also coalition partners after that. I mean, I went everywhere. And they had, based upon just the material and just being able to present the material as you taught us in the classroom, and keeping the integrity of it, I had one-star generals, two-star generals calling, "Hey, what's this Staff Sergeant Lemon? Send them over here." And that was—yeah, so they were sending me everywhere. I had my own helicopter! I got pictures of me flying!

We never got that when we were together! So I want to know how that one worked out, buddy.

They were sending me—I was going out to the Wardak Province, I believe it was, Camp Spana, I believe it was, where I was going. And I was by myself because they would send a handler with me, so I used to have the Sergeant Major go with me, but he didn't go. They said, "Hey, you got to go." And so I'm out there, and I'm flying in this Huey, and I'm sitting in this little door, and then we're flying over these mountains, and then the helicopter is moving slow like this. I'm like, "What's going on?" "Yeah, the air is too thin for the helicopter to fly." And I'm like, I was familiar with that because I was a mechanic in the Marine Corps for CH-46s. Yeah. And I'm standing there in the door with my weapon sitting here like, "Man, if somebody actually has like a Barrett sniper rifle down." Yeah, yeah.

And for those of us that don't know what a CH-46 is, that's the banana-shaped, two-prop Marine helicopter that while it's spitting hot fluid on you, if on the inside you think you're going down, that's actually a good sign. Still pumping the hydraulic fluid.

Yeah.

How did you land in Wardak?

Well, this was actually, I was in the Huey on this one. Yeah, a few weeks. But I was saying I was a mechanic—I was a Marine Corps mechanic. But yeah, they say, "If you're not—if it's not leaking, it's not working." That's what you always say. So yeah, those CH-46s, love them. That was a reason why I got out of the Marine Corps was because they were decommissioning all the CH-46s. And as a Staff Sergeant in the Marine Corps, I was too senior for them to retread me. So they were trying to place me somewhere else, and they couldn't. So they ended up—they tried to find me a job, they couldn't. So I said, "Hey, you got to go." And so I ended up because they moved with the V-22 Osprey. Yeah, yeah, which is not gone.

Brian, I want to make sure that you understand too. Brian knows this, RaSheed, you know this, but many of the listeners might not know. We made a difference. So 2012, 2013, all the time 2014, insider threats were virtually non-existent. And it was credited to a number of things, but one of the huge credits was to this program. And thankfully that you kept the faith and kept out there, teaching the curriculum. That's fantastic.

Well, I can give you a big testament or testimony to that is the fact that the training that we had at the time. I actually, when I was going around teaching the Alabama National Guard, was the SEC 4 (Security Element Command). And there was a situation to where, after we had taught them, literally like it was a week after, and we also included the Guardian Angel program because I started working with our SOF (Special Operations Forces) guys over at Camp Morehead, and we had to learn about the Guardian Angel program. So we had a little bit of connection with that as well. And I had trained the whole Alabama National Guard. I had a good relationship with them. And it was—I can't remember what day it was, but there was an Afghan that was in the uniform, and the little things that we taught them, you know, the cues and the clues and everything. The Afghan started to go kinetic. But the Alabama National Guard private actively killed the assailant that was trying to kill their team. And they credited it to the true teachings that we had taught. So that was—that was probably one of the biggest things that really had an impact, because that private, because he listened in the class, he actually saved his whole team, you know, with the Guardian Angel program and other things. But it was like it made him more aware. And I think that the training made so many people more aware of the micro-behaviors as you used to teach, that they were able to pick up on something that something might be wrong. You know, "If it's a duck, it isn't the..." You know? So, and that pretty much helped.

And RaSheed, that's a perfect example. If you take a look at the five combat multipliers: tactical cunning, tactical patience, geometry of fire, good shepherd, and Guardian Angel. Everybody knew Guardian Angel was the name that they wanted to swipe and use because it was the right thing, you know, that hidden presence that was always on the lookout. So, when you take a look at it, all of the time that you were able to use pieces of the program, you're saying that you're still using it today as an Assistant Supervisory Air Marshal in Charge, right? I mean, that—that makes me so proud. That—to me, there's a legacy, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And I've been trying—I've been trying to pass that on. As a matter of fact, when I was an instructor in Atlanta as a Federal Air Marshal—I was a Senior Federal Air Marshal at the time before I got promoted—my supervisor at the time allowed me to kind of teach some of these things to our guys. It wasn't part of our actual curriculum, but he was just utilizing the experience and where I could teach folks.

That's kind of what I wanted to ask you too, because you've got a lot of experience as an Air Marshal. So, for people who don't fly a lot, when you start flying a lot, you see—I mean, you see everything. It's wild. What happens up in the air now, you just wouldn't even believe it. Especially, we got to do some training with some of your folks or the Air Marshal instructors out at the training facility a few months ago. Same thing, I was asking them stories, I'm just like, "Holy cow!" But I kind of want to see, how did it—so you're doing the insider threat stuff, and then you go back kind of as your Air Marshal, you had that time. How did that stuff help during that? Were you able to kind of—do you have anything you can share? I know there's a lot, you know, you're still working there, so there's only so much you could say and talk about, but something where you're like, "Hey, because of this, I noticed, and then I was able to intervene," or something like that. It could be anything. I'm sure most of it was just probably just drunk passengers that you probably don't want to get involved with, but...

Well, when I actually got back, I was actually promoted, but it was more so passing these particular things, that experience that I had, on to my other guys that were actually still flying. So that was—that was the main thing. But it made me more aware, and then it made me be able to interject some of these things. And some of the things that I actually was trying to do within the agency—I've actually talked to—we have an insider threat section now. We're revamping our whole organization. And the person that was the SAC (Special Agent in Charge) over the insider threat in the beginning stages, I started sharing some things with him. He was an old Marine Corps guy as well. I thought he was a sniper or something like that. And I started sharing some things with him. I'm not sure how they may have utilized it, but they've actually asked me questions here or there about some things. So I was able to interject a little bit. But not so much that. And there were some things that I was able to pass on to some of the guys that I flew from my experiences over there. But it wasn't like a direct teaching of the AITD program, but they knew what I did. Yeah, that's why I was getting the questions.

Brian, I would ask RaSheed this. RaSheed, you got to see both the Combat Hunter program and the Insider Threat Awareness training on the ground in Afghanistan with coalition force members from numerous different countries, U.S. forces from every spectrum—from Special Forces all the way down to the ground troops. And we worked with the coalition Afghan partners, and COP (Combat Outpost), and the Afghan National Army. The thing—and I'm begging for an endorsement on this—you got to see that it had nothing to do with culture. Everybody got it, no matter who they were, male, female, old, young, right? I mean, because you got to see that on the ground. I'm not just making it up when I say that it works everywhere. You got to see it work everywhere, isn't that a fact?

Absolutely, I did get to see it work everywhere. And that came from a lot of what you taught, and it may even mean more where, culturally, you know where he said, "Grieving grief is the same in any other culture as it would be in our culture." And you were able to recognize these particular cultural, I guess, these norms, if you will, from each one, and that will give you a clue as to what's going on. I even still use it as to like—and I tell you, I use this even in my job today, in this respect with that is—like, "Who's the most important person in the room?" You know, with the toes pointing, who's doing all that? That's all that stuff is so true. I don't know—you are able to tell somebody's going to shake your hand and twist your hand. All those little things, I remember everything, and it's helped me to recognize, you know, like who's who and what's what. And I'm able to either sit back and scan and see what's happening. But you're actually right, you can—it didn't matter who it is or what culture. I'm able to now tell what's going on, even when I look at people, and I'll tell my wife, "Something's not right here." And then it just brings my attention to it. And then if you investigate it, as you used to say, you investigate, you have a little bit more information than what you just previously had. So, no, that...

And that's the thing, sometimes it's just knowing where and how to start, right? So you get a perfect example, like the young private from Alabama National Guard, who's like, "Hey, wait a minute, this is one of those things you're talking about right here," or, "This is what we saw that was different." And sometimes that's just enough because the people in the room will tell you. Because we took that insider threat from Afghanistan, and then we pointed at the Army, said, "Hey, can you address a couple problems? We've got a suicide issue up at Joint Base Lewis-McChord (JBLM) that was the worst there in any other place in the Army, right? And then they also had the SHARP program, the Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention program." You know, but they had sexual assault problems. So they said, "Well, can you do—because we classify those two things as insider threats to us. That's the same thing." And we were doing a course up in the Pacific Northwest, up at JBLM, and it was one of our larger ones. It was a one-day thing. We were doing 120 soldiers in there, in these big little groups, all the folding chairs, and we're doing our thing. And then after the first break—I mean, after the first break in one of the groups, suddenly this young sergeant is sitting alone in that back row. He's not sitting—no one else is sitting next to him again. And we're like, "Okay, well, there's your place to start." And the folks from the Army were like, "Well, what do you mean?" I was like, "Look, everyone, when you come back into a room, if you're watching a movie or watching a presentation, whatever it is, you sit in your seat, you take ownership of it. That's yours. So what happened that all of these people decided to move away from that person?" And they're like, "Oh, so you think—" I was like, "Yeah, that's where you start. Sometimes it's that obvious. Sometimes it's that easy to tell. The people, the environment, will speak to you and tell you." Those soldiers knew, "Oh, they're talking about this guy," and they all wanted to do what? Get the heck away from him, you know what I'm saying? So it's those little things. I mean, just that little bit right there, or the suicide prevention ones too. Like, we had the same thing after our first break of the one-day course. We're an hour in, and you had people coming up going, "Hey, you're talking exactly like one of my teammates!" "Hey, you're talking about this!" "Hey, I think we need to do..." And literally the behavioral health folks—Army—who are great, we had some amazing people work with. They were all overwhelmed. "We didn't know we would get..." I'm like, "Yeah, we get immediate results! That's right! Like, we drop in and let's go, like, right now, let's find this." So I think it was just kind of how we do stuff. And we always try to tell people, you know, you don't have to be—you don't have to be RaSheed Lemon with all the experience and the law enforcement, military, and multiple branches and serving all over the world. You don't have to be that to get it. In fact, you can't be everywhere. You're not—there is no, "Can't have just you doing this," right? It's got to be that person on that front line. And I think empowering those—that's what those courses, everyone—I'm sure you had the same experience—liked it so much because it was about, "Hey, we're all in this right now. There is no one person who has more power in this." Like, it has to be the lowest guy or girl on the ground saying, "Hey, I see something odd here. Does anyone else notice that?" And those little things are what I always loved about it, and what we got—why we got to—I think I would just point it in a different direction. Even though the insider threat stuff is the same to us, whether it's someone you're going to train or someone in your team or whatever it is, an insider threat is always, always, always the worst to an organization. I mean, it tears you apart from the inside.

And you know, Brian, we've never stopped teaching, RaSheed. So we've been on the road just in different forms, and we teach law enforcement, first responders, and healthcare professionals, and churches, and schools, and Fortune 500 and Fortune 100 companies. And the same principles have always applied. And Brian, I want to point this out, had it not been for RaSheed and his rich level of experience—he had all of the experience—it was divine intervention that they put us together. Because he was able to look at, you know, people think—you remember, RaSheed, people stole the PowerPoint photos or they stole this and they tried to do—you remember how ridiculous that got? And he kept saying, "The power is not in the PowerPoint. It's in—we show you a couple of these cues that you can use in everyday conversation, and then you build your own rapport." And so you took what you learned in the class, and because of your rich experience, it springboarded you forward, and you were able to be an incredible instructor. Listen, folks, RaSheed and I didn't talk for like 10 years, and then all of a sudden, it was a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago, RaSheed drops me a line on LinkedIn and goes, "Hey, how are you? What's going on?" And it's like, "Oh my gosh, our career paths have continued down this." But had it not been for him, Brian, embracing it and saying, "Okay, what can I learn from this?" Because you're an experienced vet by the time you met me, you didn't need me to teach you about road work or about UC work or, you know, how to boot a door. But you still glommed onto it immediately.

What was that like? What was it like to you on that side when you first saw it? Because a lot of people describe it as, "Man, a light bulb went off!" And you're like, you know, the most common comment, I guess we get, Brian, is, "Where was this my whole career?" Did you have anything like that at all, RaSheed?

No, it's honestly—yeah, it was engaging. Everything was engaging. And the biggest thing I saw was, it was just everything that I learned was very inspiring. And I was like, "I could—I could this—" It was helping me even look at myself in some of the things. But then, more than that, I was looking at it as, "This is so valuable for everybody else." So I've always learned, you know, "The student is never above the master." You know? So I wanted to be—I wanted to learn, I wanted to learn from the men that were actually doing this thing. And I want to be like you, in a sense, because it was the whole thing was inspiring, your team was inspiring. It was about all these other things. It was about, "Let's get this mission done right," and just having a passion for it. But the other thing what I think that—what I learned from that was that if people haven't seen the old presentations—I'm not sure how you may have changed—they were just pictures, you know? They were just like, and then you had to be able to—you had to be the one to tell, to pull all of the—and, well, you know, I have my Master of Divinity, we call the exegesis, you know, and being able to take the meaning up out of the text. So I could show a picture, so they could steal the PowerPoint all day, like you said. Yeah, but they couldn't tell the story like you could tell the story because many of those folks didn't have the experience, you know? Like that Lieutenant Colonel probably didn't do anything in his career other than what he did was just yelling at people and just not being a real leader. So you could put a picture of me, go ahead, tell the story about this to help you, so he couldn't do it. But because he didn't have a passion for the people. So you see that...

RaSheed, to this day, we have people, and some of them they come up and go, "Oh yeah, I was a student of this program," even though I never heard of them. And they take one of those photos and a couple of the lines that we used in class 20 years ago. You get what I'm saying? And they—they say it. RaSheed, just a sidebar question, did I hide that I was scared to death pretty well, because I was frightened all through Iraq and Afghanistan? Did I hold it in pretty well? Could you tell?

You did a good job. Because boy myself, I was—I was like, "This is great!" I felt, absolutely, I'll be honest with you, I really felt like—I felt like y'all would take me through selection or something like that, you know? I had like this really super ninja stuff that I can actually do. I wasn't super ninja guys, I was down at Camp Morehead, but it was—I was able to make a difference, you know? And but you did a good job, but I—I was inspired. It inspired me literally for a lifetime. Inspired by what I learned from the Insider Threat Detection Awareness program while we were there. It was a life-changer for me, honestly. And I think that that's what kind of pushed me to want to do more in my agency because I realized I couldn't do anything unless I was in the positions to actually do it. And so, here or there, I was even actually—so my training staff here, where I'm at, I'm even in the position to where I could tell them, "Hey, why don't we start teaching this thing to, or teaching talk bits and pieces of what we have to our guys?" Because we're running into an older workforce and a little more complacent because we haven't had a 9/11. And then we got in, very similar to Afghanistan, we're doing a lot of organizational changes. So we know, ripping in and ripping out, people don't pay attention to certain things. And then we've got a lot of people retiring. And so, there's a lot going on, and I think that folks need to be a little more aware of what's going on on the operational side, but then also on the in-house side. Because and that's everywhere we go, right?

You know, excuse me, but what we were talking about is, during those times of transition, right? People coming in and out, right? Things turning over, right? That creates those seams and gaps, and that's where bad things happen in the seams and gaps, right? But those are—those are points for danger, but also for opportunity, right? So the idea is like, you have that. So what is the common thread? And that's every organization, whether it's a government one, especially, because while you're getting up there, you're going to be at that SES (Senior Executive Service) level, which means, "Okay, then a new administration comes in, and then you've got to go find a new job," you know, or different things happen. And so you have that turnover, and then, guess what, now the next team is basically dealing with the same problems that the last team did. And then you get much farther on because there's no continuity. And that organizational change is constant, right? We all know it's going to happen. And so part of what this does, without having to rely on a thing or new technology or way, it's, "Hey, this is something that everyone can use to get through." Because what I love is your reaction is, because it's the same thing for me and for a lot of people is, "Man, I learned this, and now I can look back on my own experiences and pull more out of them." So that's the idea. Because everywhere we go, there's people there with—they've got all the knowledge, they've got all the answers, right? They sometimes don't even realize it, right? Everyone on the team. It's like, you're not going to just hire or bring someone in from outside and have them tell you what to do and how to do things. Like most people at an organization know. They know where the points of friction are, they know what they need to do. So, but getting everyone to talk about it and get on the same page with the same lexicon, "Oh yeah, I saw that problem too." That's—that's the biggest thing that needs to happen in a lot of places. Because once you have a common thread, then it doesn't matter what the challenge is, right? We can figure that out as it goes along. So...

And you know, the one thing I think that—I think, you know, even knowing what I know and what I've learned, I think it makes me just—just as from a macro level, when we're looking at our country at this point in time, it makes me a little concerned because one of the things we talk about, ruses and all these different things. And then we're looking at things, I'm just wondering if America itself is—even these seams and gaps, we have a lot of them, right? We've caught just so many people here recently down at the border. Is something going to happen again in our country on a greater level too? But just everything that I've learned, it just helps me to be aware of even my personal life. And then even from where I'm at now, even looking at things on a bigger picture, and then how can I—and I always wonder, how can I help as best I can? So, I can retire now. My retirement eligibility date, with everything, was March of this year. But I still want to serve, you know? So I want to be able to stay as long as I can, as long as they keep me, to be able to inject or interject whatever I can to help somewhere, and be a part of keeping our country safe. So, but...

And you're doing that every day. And you know, here's one of the things that a lot of times our viewers and listeners don't know. So you get a good program, you get a Combat Hunter, you get an ASAP (Army Suicide Awareness Program) program with the Army, you get an Insider Threat program. And then all of a sudden you go, "I get promoted up and out," or people leave, or the situation on the ground changes. So somebody goes back and they go, "Hey, what's that really cool program that was called that we all went through?" Right? And the idea is, what happens is the longevity of a program, if it's a very popular program, the first thing that they do is open it up for bids to people that have never done it before and can do it for a fraction of the cost. You know that. And then all of a sudden they say, "Okay, well, the first thing we want to do, we want to disassociate whoever built it, so we can change the name of the course." And then what happens is we don't understand that all of a sudden we got the third grade teaching the second grade. And we've got that VHS tape, if anybody knows what that is, that's been duplicated so many times it's like weak, and we're trying to look through all the fog on it, like an old TV serial from the '50s, and it's not the same program. And RaSheed, I've been in rooms where people use my slides and my quotes, and Marren will smile at me and not—and I'll go over and go, "Where did you learn that?" And they go, "I don't know, it's always been part of it." And it's like, "I'm that guy, that's me in the corner." How do we—how do we—well, two things: One, I think you've addressed the challenge. The challenge is that because we haven't been gut-punched in a while, we're unwary, we're not going to be ready for it. And how do you keep people involved in the program, even after that cycle has run its course? How do you keep people interested and excited? I know it's hard for us, it's lifting weights upstairs every single day, it seems like. Do you feel that way sometimes?

Uh, yeah, I do, you know. Trying to—you talk about keeping it into the program of this, or just in general, keeping good ideas relevant?

Yeah, you know, because there's a lot of great programs of record out there, a lot of them.

Yeah. And the thing is, a lot of people, what I know, they're very ambitious to take that, to get the next best thing, or to try to make themselves famous or whatever. But I think that when you don't have the right motives or the intent, it never works the way it should work. But it is—it is hard to keep those good ideas on the surface. But then, I'll be honest with you, I'll tell you this, a lot of people were intimidated because of the ideas or the things that I—that you may learn from that, like this program. When I talk about insider threat, and I'm like, "Well, this is this," and I just kind of talked to them because I'm trying to share what I know. They can attempt—they don't want to hear anything. It's like, "Okay, now they don't—they don't want to get that information." And that hurts the program or hurts who they can help. But it is hard to keep these things up because of just, we're dealing with people every day. Yeah. And their selfish motives or whatever it is, you know? So I know you're right.

Okay, Brian, I still had—I looked it up the other day. I've got my briefcase that I carry around with me. I've updated the briefcase, but the contents are virtually identical. And I've got my old green notebook, RaSheed, that I bought at the PX (Post Exchange) in Afghanistan just for the trip to Afghanistan. The very first thing I wrote in it was Ephesians 6:10-18, you know, "Put on the full armor of God." And I carried it with me all the time because I was like, "Look, God, I'm doing the work, you know? I'm not a slacker because I didn't want to get pinched, you know?" How has faith seen you through everything? Because folks, look up RaSheed, he's an author, you're very active in your church in addition to your works.

Yeah, you know, getting to where you are. Well, on the other side, I rededicated my life back to Christ in 1999. And, you know, I wasn't the greatest at the beginning, but I was learning. There were some things that I wanted to do, and I wanted to be able to take the gospel message out. And I was ordained as a deacon, went from there. But what really got me was in—really 2015, I remarried, met my wife. She's a phenomenal lady. She's a worship leader and everything. And God gave me a vision to actually—we planted a church or a ministry. I don't say church, I say ministry because we're moving a lot because of my job. So wherever we plant, we either minister to the people and do that. I've ministered to so many people on my job. I've married folks, I've counseled people, I've done all the things in there. So it's all about serving, serving, serving down and serving up whenever you can, serving across the plain as well. But I've always done it. I went to Regent University, got my Master of Divinity in Biblical Studies. I was really interested in the ancient Near Eastern history and everything, and I want to be able to share that knowledge to other people, to make them more aware even of the gospel truth. And so, my ministry, my wife and I, we're doing Zooms now once again, and we have a lot of people that kind of follow us. We were doing like Facebook Lives at one point, we had like 700-800 followers every week following us, just being inspired and things of that nature. But we're doing things on a smaller scale now, but we still minister to a lot of people because we realize, even like with insider threat, you know, the insider threat in us is the enemy in me. And so we try to teach people that kind of thing about how the scripture says, "Work out your own soul salvation with fear and trembling." So we teach people how to deal with self, and then they're able to do things in life. People are going through things a lot. And I have a passion for that. I have a passion for men, and even our veterans, you know, I really love because our vets deal with, they say, post-traumatic stress disorder and things of that nature. So I like to be able to deal with—help many of them. So my faith has kept me grounded in many ways in everything that I do, from my job, even to preaching the gospel message as well.

That's great. That's incredible because, you know, you're such that mentor-coach mindset and everything that you do, I love it.

Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, and that's—that's kind of missing in a lot of places. I think that's why people gravitate towards different groups, sort of. It gives them that structure or gives someone in there to tell them whether that is a good group or a bad group, I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, you're looking for some of that. And especially with us on the private sector, you go from—you know, the military, you just know you're constantly training a replacement because you're going somewhere, you're going up and out. So you have to constantly develop people. So it's—it's built in even more so than a lot of people realize. And so, outside of that military-type structure, it doesn't happen a lot, especially in like a private workforce. In a lot of places, it's like every man or woman for themselves, they're trying to get ahead, and they're not developing those people. But then, the company—that actually negatively affects the company. So it might be individually great for that person, but for that organization over time, that's unsustainable. You have to be able to develop that next person, because now it takes someone you're going to hire on, and now they don't even learn everything that they need to know for a year. Well, you just lost out on a year of them performing their job really well. And just building that into everything that you do, it just sounds exactly like what you do, and we always try to do is—that mentor-coaching concept is huge. And a lot of people don't know how to do it right because they haven't had any training in it. You know, military, you kind of get, "Hey, you now you go teach it." It's like, "What? Oh yeah, now you go have to go do it." It's like, "Uh, okay." You get thrown into it sometimes even when you're not fully prepared. But having that as just your life, in everything that you do, makes all of it easier, right? Because I do the same thing. You know, I give how many examples in class now, do I, Greg, when we talk—

It doesn't make you popular. No.

But how many times in class where I go, "Hey, here's an example," and instead of giving something from me being a sniper in the Al Anbar Province of Iraq and do this, it's like, "Hey, here's what I do with my daughter." I mean, here's an example of how I implemented that. So powerful, because people know, look, just like your faith-based, just like your peer-to-peer, your mentor, your servant leadership—people do it wrong. And we've got a lot of people that are out there and using those words and purporting to know what they're talking about that, you know what, they forgot. If you're telling somebody else's story, and it's not a compelling story from the Bible, you've got to rein it in a little bit. Because, you know what, the idea of Brian talking about his nine-year-old insurgent at home and teaching her how to turn off the lights to conserve energy—Brian, those resonate with everybody that's listening. And that's what RaSheed and I tried to do that. So I'm trying to bring up too, with talking about Abrahamic religion, everybody said, "Oh man, that's off." RaSheed, how many times was I talking about where the Garden of Eden was and everything? And the people in the audience were looking, going, "Holy crap, I never knew that!" It's like, "Yeah, these are your brothers. We're all brothers and sisters here." And that opened their hearts. There was less killing because it was more understanding. And the Taliban can't get you to kill people that you know are your brothers and sisters. That's the hard part, you know? So I saw that all over. And Brian, I tell you what, your transformation as an instructor is only because you started feeling it so much in your life that you were going like, "Hey, it's a facet of everything I do. It's not, 'Put my training hat on, put my insider threat hat on.'"

Yeah, no, that's exactly. We talked about that before. I'm sure you've seen that super compartmentalization where you're like, "Okay, now we're going to focus on this issue." It's like, "No, no, man. There's a core set of competencies in everything that we do. Why don't we just get really good at that central hub and then all of these other ones will kind of fall in place?" But we kind of take that look—I mean, we talk about that all the time. I'm sure you've seen that your career as well.

Yeah, yeah. I just got to know because I look at the rich tapestry of life, like a dreamcatcher, that you've built so far. And I know you're still on the game, and you're trying to move around in there. What do you see in the next two, five, and ten? Where do you want to be? I know you want to keep influencing humans, and that's amazing, and that you're keeping the training alive, that's amazing. But what's going to be your—like, you know, I tell Brian all the time, "I just want to leave a legacy. I don't care that my name's on it. I just want the program to survive." You get what I'm saying?

Well, that's the million-dollar question that I've had even for myself here. There's so many things I want to do. So I'm up for retirement for this job where I'm at, and I can leave, but I want to stay as long as I can. The military, I'm retiring from them as well. But what I did was, because I wanted to serve, I wanted to look to do something different, and I thought I wanted—I wanted to teach still, I wanted to teach something. I was looking at the private sector and what was out there. That was one of the reasons why I said, "Hey, can I do something?" You know, "I want to see if there's anything to do." And, "Or, you know, because we had that relationship in the past, maybe I could—we could—maybe I could be something I wanted to do, something that was worth something." So, but what I did do was, I had some opportunities that what they call a succession program with us. So I'm looking at to run my own field office as a SAC (Special Agent in Charge). And I wanted to—and then I also started applying for Federal Security Director positions across the TSA (Transportation Security Administration). And literally, for the past two weeks, I've been interviewing for all these jobs. And I actually got referred for a few of them, and I just interviewed last Thursday for the Deputy FSD (Federal Security Director) for Baltimore and several other locations, as they said. And so those opportunities have been opening up for me as well. So I want to do that. And then there's a part of me that wants to go ahead and establish a church and a location and be able to do that aspect too. But that's where I kind of see where I'm going. But I think for the next 10 years, as long as they keep me, I'll serve in the government while I can and to see how I can help. And maybe, you know, I even thought about—I've been kicked around the idea of even running for State Delegate—or maybe Congress. I tried to get on a non-partisan—because I mean, with the Hatch Act, there's only so much I can do. The non-partisan position. I was recommended by my State Senator and a State Delegate in Virginia to be on the board for veterans. But that became—that's a—I didn't realize how political it was because they had all like the Sergeant Majors, O-6s (Colonel equivalent), and everybody. And I haven't seen them do anything. You know, I want to do something for the veterans, especially here in Virginia, so close to Walter Reed and all the different things here. But I applied for that, so I'm still trying to figure out where to go there. But the next step is seeing where the Federal Security Director jobs go.

Brian, how many times do we ask people like, "What are the next two, five, and ten?" and we hear crickets? And the great thing is, RaSheed, you've got it all planned, man. You've got a whole bunch of irons in the fire. You don't know where God's going to take you, but you've got a bunch. And you know what's funny about string theory, about science? Brian and I had just come off of teaching federal agents and Air Marshals in Atlantic City, and all of a sudden I checked my LinkedIn when I got home, and there's a message from you after so many years, which is great. The idea that our orbits keep crossing each other, that our paths keep crossing, and that we've got a bigger plan for us, and, you know, for the safety and security of our nation and our soldiers, and sailors, and airmen, and Marines, and first responders, everybody. That just invigorates me, it opens up a whole bunch of new doors for the next few years.

Yeah, yeah. So, I'm still trying to figure it out. Nothing's perfect or set in stone. I got back into school again, I'm working on my MBA in Finance and Economics. But that was the only reason why I did that was because, moving up, I didn't have that for the government aspect. Having that financial background, because we just—law enforcement, we're just kicking planes and stuff. They—I didn't get—hold on one second. Oh, okay, I need to turn this down just a little bit. They were making noise from the next door. Oh yeah. So...

Yeah, no worries. And so what's coming through right now?

Yeah, well, I have one of my fans. He's taking a test next door. So, but it's okay, I just have to turn my volume down. But let me just tell them I got it. So I apologize.

No, not a problem, not a problem.

I think what's clear, while he's doing that, is that RaSheed also has a plan to have The Human Behavior Podcast and do away with Brian Marren. He's going to try to edge in there, I think. I'm just saying. So what would you do if you were the new Brian Marren? Oh my gosh. (Laughter) Get him started. That's so funny.

Yeah, I'm good.

Well, we appreciate you coming on and talking about some of the stuff. And it's interesting, you know, how your career has been affected by—you attribute a lot of your stuff to that program that Greg was implementing, and then you had to take the ball and run with it, knowing it was, "Hey, someone stole the ball from Greg and gave it to you." He had to go do it. But, you know, we, one, we appreciate talking to you about it, and we love hearing your stories, and your background is absolutely incredible. I always tell people that's—that's always like when I meet people who do that, they're like, "Hey, I was in the reserves here, and I was doing this," and it did like three careers all at the same time. And you just gained so much knowledge and experience. So I'm glad to hear that you're still applying that because you like to serve for the federal government and in the work that you do. Because a lot of people take that and they go out and they shop around and get some company to pay them a lot of money, and, you know, because they're impressed by their resume. Whereas, you're still trying to serve, which we respect and appreciate so much. It's great to hear that, you know, everyone wants to say, "Oh, these SES (Senior Executive Service) and GS (General Schedule) workers, they're all a bunch of this, that, and the other thing." And I'm always like, "Yeah, have you ever met one individually? Like, you know, maybe that's just some stereotype that you heard might not be true." But it's good to hear that we have people on the inside like that, just fighting to do what's right and keeping that mission forward and keeping it going every single day. That's the tough part, you know? It's easy to come on Facebook or social media anywhere and rant and rave about politics and this, that, and the other thing. But a lot of people aren't willing to get in there and actually do the work. So...

Right. And I would add one thing, Brian. I know we're bringing it in for a landing. RaSheed, I will tell you this: One, we all want to know what's next for RaSheed, so please keep us in the loop on that. Two, hopefully we're going to cross paths again later this year if we get something going in Harpers Ferry. And the third thing is, as much as you—such kind words—I'm trying to remain humble of, you know, how I may have inspired your trajectory at some point in your life. I want you to know that you inspired me as well. There were so many times that you kept me going day-to-day, and wouldn't have been able to do that without your support.

Thank you, thank you. I appreciate you all for having me and just inviting me. I'm humbled by it. And anything that I can do to help, be part of whatever, you know, I'm open and I'm game.

That's great. We appreciate that, RaSheed. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And everyone for listening, thanks for listening. Don't forget that training changes behavior.