L.O.G. 110 Home Field Advantage

Hello and welcome to the video version of The Human Behavior Podcast. I'm Brian Marren, the host and creator of the show. As always, I will be joined by human behavior expert Mr. Greg Williams, who the show is affectionately named after. On the show, we discuss different topics through the lenses of what we call Human Behavior Pattern Recognition Analysis. If you'd like to find out more about what that is, please check the links in the episode details and go to our website to learn more. Please don't forget to follow us on social media; the links are also in the episode details, and hit the like and subscribe button to help support our work. Thanks for tuning in, and we hope you enjoy the show.

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But I want to jump right into this topic today. We've got a few things we're going over, and the overarching theme would be what we call home field advantage, or what we're going to get into is kind of a geographic profile. Two cases we're going to jump into: one recently in Nashville, where someone was shot and killed attempting what they called a fake robbery, or prank robbery, excuse me, for YouTube Live that they wanted to go on and do. So, we're going to discuss that case, and the recent case that happened in Florida where two FBI agents unfortunately were killed executing an arrest warrant on someone.

So, those two seemingly unrelated topics, in fact, I believe are somewhat related in terms of how these things escalate into violence and how it happens. And one of the ways they do is kind of understanding a geographic profile and what we consider to be almost our home turf, right?

I always go back to, you know, one of the things we always see when we're teaching courses, Greg, is that we go in there, we start off cold, start day one, boom, get going. And then everyone comes back day two, and everyone sits in the exact same seat they were in the first day, regardless—unless we physically had to move them or reassign them—they always sit in the same seat. There's a reason for this, right? It's not even when we're out to dinner with our families, and then someone bumps into us, or there's a loud party at another table a few tables over, and we automatically start getting pissed, and we feel like, "Hey, we're being almost attacked here." So, yeah.

So, I kind of want to start there, Greg. Explain why that is, why that happens, and what this has to do—we'll get into what this has to do with the specific cases then.

So, let's do science L-I-T-E for those people that like to go and do their own research. Brian and I just flew back from D.C., and so when we got to the airport parking lot for the rental, the amazing thing is that they channel you and direct you to where you need to park. But if you look at the greater parking lot at large, people always want to get closest to an entrance, okay? But if they see a car, you'll see that they autonomically move over two or three cars where they're going to park their car. And then, all of a sudden, it looks like, you know, a seventh-grade class in Mississippi with the gaps in their teeth. You know how kids lose their teeth and have to get their adult teeth? Everybody's smiling through these gaps in the parking lot.

Then, we were in the airport, and I had my 15-minute bathroom breaks, my bio-breaks, go into the urinals. The funny thing was, even pre-COVID, what do you see? You see the people take the first urinal, then the third, then the seventh, right? The idea is that we don't like bunching up. We like to have our own terrain. We actually sometimes will turn chairs or put our suitcase—we saw that at the airport, Brian—where people would put the suitcase in front of them to deflect them, and then their carry-on bag next to them to create a little fort.

Well, we're insecure, vulnerable little snowflakes, and what we like to do is we like to have this area, and we adopt it and think it's ours. We go to a bar we've never been to, we go to a Chili's in a different town, and what do we do? We sit down right away, and that table turns into our geographic anchor point. You know, the only person that we're going to allow in is the waitress, and then we're dismissive and shoo them away sometimes, don't we?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and then heaven forbid if somebody comes by to take your photo or sell you a rose or ask, "Hey, haven't I seen you on The Human Behavior Podcast?" We get that all the time, folks, but only in Macedonia. But, are we or are we not fiercely protective of that? You know, even at the bar, Brian, you sit at the bar, and somebody comes up, and all they want to do is sit down, and you're like, "Hey, that seat's taken!" And we would never talk like that to anybody in public, right? But when we get into a situation where there's a geographic essential and a proxemic essential to us, then we go wild. Our brain waves start taking over, and we think that we're lord of that little area.

Yeah, I know that. And that's a good point. So, we kind of immediately take that ownership, and it becomes ours. Like, I always give the classroom example because then you come back and I'll sit in someone's seat or tell someone to sit in that person's seat, and they'll come back and be like, "Hey, you're sitting in my seat!" It's like, "Dude, this wasn't assigned! This isn't your seat, this isn't your room, this isn't anything." But we immediately take ownership of that.

So, kind of jumping into the first case in Nashville where, I guess, that's a thing to do, prank robberies. I've never heard those two words together. What it sounds like to me is like you're doing a prank robbery, but you're really robbing the person, and that way, if you get caught, you're like, "Oh, no, I'm filming it for YouTube! Here's your money back!" I don't know, that's the first thing that popped in my mind. But this kid came up with a knife in this trampoline park in Nashville, and the guy was with—there was another guy, young guy there with some friends that were hanging out—and he comes up with a knife. So, Robert (the victim) doesn't know. He (the victim) ends up—he's carrying a concealed weapon—pulls him out, kills the guy right then and there. And then, through the immediate investigation, found out that this guy was trying to prank. It was this whole big thing, but the guy who pulled the trigger didn't know that. He wasn't in on the prank.

So, there's that issue right there. I think we're going, "Wait, how does this immediately turn into that? I mean, how does it escalate into a homicide like that?" Right? Or self-defense, whatever it's going to be, but the idea is, how does that turn into it? Now, in this case, there was a weapon involved, and he thought he was being robbed, so that's a little bit different. But immediately in that area, I would say even if you walked up to that guy and said something, or did something, or spilled something, they immediately take ownership of the area you're hanging out in, in this public space, right? And so, that almost becomes an attack on them and the group and their whole identity. And so, that's how these things initially can kind of escalate. Does that sort of make sense?

Yeah, and Brian, you know, we believe in eight psychological stances, and we're not going to go into that on this broadcast, but I'll tell you one is surprise. In the element of surprise, I want you to add now a bunch of people being in your house or your apartment. It's your birthday, and unbeknownst to you, it's going to be a surprise, and you walk in and they scream, "Yahtzee!" Okay? I've never read an article, even from Jakarta, where that guy pulled out his legally owned weapon and started spraying the room with gunfire, okay? Why? Because what happens is we have certain file filters, certain mental models for what's likely to occur in our lives. And the mental model created for robbery isn't a joke. Kidnapping is not a joke.

So, when we see that, and when we see this situation where you're out with friends in a public place, and now that public place has become a mobile, a roving geographic anchor point for your friends and your behavior, and now somebody known or unknown to you comes up with a knife and gets in your grill, Brian, how can you not escalate violence at that point? A common human, in a rational, sane, sober, rational state, is going to look at that and say, "Oh my God, I'm trying to be stabbed!" And now let's not get into the de-escalation component. If you're trained, you're going to de-escalate, you're going to create distance, you're going to do a bunch of other stuff, but the outcome is likely still going to be an escalation of deadly force if the person's moving on you with an edge weapon, especially if they were as close as these distances are to film.

You know, we always say, Brian, if you can film it, you can stop it. You get what I'm trying to say? I can't believe that nobody else noticed it. So, here you had the element of surprise, you had a geographic anchor point, you had somebody that wasn't welcome into your friendship circle. So, defenses come up, and defenses mean a higher, elevated state of likely potential violence.

Okay, so this can happen in a number of different, just basic social situations, right? That's why I feel any time I'm in an area for a while, this now becomes my area, whether it's my car, where I'm sitting at the table, or where I'm in line with someone, or my family, whatever the situation is, we become very territorial very quick. And so, that's part of the reason.

Now, the reason I kind of wanted to start with this specific case out of Nashville is because it goes to show you that this can happen at any point in any situation, right? So, this is outside of the home. Meaning, I mean, this is even when you're just literally standing in line somewhere at the movie theater, you become territorial about your space and where you're at and where you should be, right? So, that's outside of where your actual [residence] is.

So, now I change that location to inside of your home, your personal home, your personal space. Okay? So, that right there now, knowing how you would act out in public in some area, is that going to—I would say that it's going to—you're going to have an increase in that feeling of protection and want of an ownership when you're in your actual home. And that's why we brought up the case of the FBI agents who were recently killed serving that warrant on that guy down in Florida for child pornography and all this, you know, nasty (content omitted). But the idea was, he's now in his home.

Now, this is not the first time, and I'm not trying to Monday morning quarterback it. But we've been part of AARs (After-Action Reviews), and we were doing those AARs because people died on our team. And so, yeah, it's really hard to talk about it, but I've had to do it before in the past. And if you don't take away the proper lessons learned, it's going to continue to happen in the future. We see this time and time again: how many times is someone, whether federal, state, local law enforcement, shot executing or serving some type of warrant? And many of the times when you go into it, you can sit here and go, "Well, how did this happen? Why did this happen?" All this guy, yeah, "We knew it was kind of happening," or "We thought he would likely increase violence," or "We knew he had a gun." It's like, we're sitting here going, "Well, why did you go into the house then?" Right? That's their home, they're going to protect it. Why even set the stage there? And that's where we take the point of de-escalation from. It's not just at the incident when you're knocking on the door and the guy's shooting back at you. It's, "No, why? Why did you go in there in the first place?" So, that's kind of my big question with all these, Greg.

I would ask you, let's split it into three parts so it's digestible chunks. I would warn everybody, do your homework and grab a yellow pad right quick, unless you're driving, and then you just yell out clues to your passenger. But one, legality of the warrants, and that's a very simple one to do. Two, what happened at the front door and a little bit of a talk about the perpetrator. And then number three, which I'd like to start with, is your example, and use a quick jungle example.

So, if everybody listening imagines a lion, and a lion has a cave, you know, and he likes to lay on the rocks in the sun, but then he retreats to his cave. That's his little safe place. The lion also has a series of observation post trees that he likes to lay in where he looks for potential meals. And he can't get it wrong. He's a big, lumbering (wombat, misspoken, likely "predator" or similar concept related to "womax" mentioned earlier), so he's got to eat. He doesn't want to lose, and he doesn't want to get kicked in the jaw and lose a tooth. So, he's very protective about the targets he chooses: limp, lame, lazy, slow targets, not big fighting targets. And then he moves from the observation post along a natural line of drift down to the water pond where there's everything from frogs and beavers and antelope and unicorns and whatever else that he could hunt.

So, if we want to kill the lion, we can choose to kill him at his cave, we can choose to kill him on the road to his surveillance points, his observation post, or we can choose to kill him on the road to the watering hole, or we can choose to kill him along the route when he's headed home. Because when you're fat and you're full, and you're off work and you're heading for home, what does that guy Allstate stand tell us? Within a couple of miles of our home, we're the most dangerous because we mentally checked out. It's much easier catching a person that's going to pick up their syphilis medicine at the Walgreens when they come out through the front door and yelling, "Yahtzee!" It's safer for the coppers, it's safer for the lion, it's safer for the general public. But Brian, if you try to go into that cave, you're going to lose some of them, and you're going to lose some of you, and nobody's going to walk out of that cave without a scratch if you're catching my meaning.

No, I think that's the part. And I know a lot of times what happens in these is, especially when you're talking about law enforcement targeting inside that cave, right? And we've seen it before in the past how it can escalate into really, really bad. It's in the news all the time. How many times, "Oh, executing a warrant, this happens. Executing a warrant, this happens." Well, that's a problem right there because, like you just said, you can pick the time and place.

So, one of the reasons this occurs is that, okay, we have an arrest warrant for you. So, Greg, I've got an arrest warrant for you. Judge signed off on it. Yeah, we're good. We had a lot of evidence here to show that you committed this crime. So, now that I have an arrest warrant for you, I can arrest you wherever I see you, correct?

Absolutely correct. It doesn't matter.

Hot does not matter. Depending on resources, we can sit on you for a while, whatever we've got, we can do this. But here's the thing: if I don't have enough evidence to obtain a search warrant for your home, right? I might not be able to search your home with a warrant, but I can, if I know, if I have an arrest warrant for you and you're inside your home, I can go arrest you inside your home. And then I can search incident to arrest, right? I can then search your home because I arrested you in said home. And legally, I mean, there's a case comes up about every 10 years or so, sort of challenging it, and it really doesn't go anywhere because it said, "No, you can do this." Now, a while back, it kind of narrowed the search parameters a little bit. Okay, certain circumstances, the vehicle is allowed to be searched, others there isn't. But if you're in your home, right, so it's clear, I can now search that area. So, is that what happens in a lot of these situations, and is that what gets the—is that the reason why they keep going, "Hey, let's go inside the home and get them"?

Yeah. So, you're spot on. One, we said we're going to talk about the three things. We talked about the lion. Let's talk about the legal, and let's talk about it very briefly, no pun intended. It's so easy to get an arrest warrant and to get a search warrant and to get a judge to sign off on them. All you have to do is create an affidavit. You create the affidavit and say, "I saw this, I did this, here's the probable cause." And then you take it to the district attorney. Many times, you have to go through the prosecuting attorney or the district attorney or an ADA (Assistant District Attorney). They review it and make sure that the content and that the legal precedent is correct. Then you go to a judge. The judge reads it, asks you to raise your right hand, and then you swear that all the things you know are true to the best of your belief, and you've got it.

So, there's no reason in this day and age that if you have evidence that's likely to be in that home, that you should do a search incident to a lawful arrest, which is what you're talking about—that now I have the arrest warrant, I see the guy, I see him in his house, I go up, knock on the door, he answers the door, I go, "Yahtzee!" And then everything that's in his likely span of control, I can search. So, Brian, that's kind of like fishing, and sometimes fishing, you know, you do good, and sometimes fishing, I saw Jaws, they eat Quint. You know what I'm trying to say? So, the idea is if you're not going to follow the law, reap the whirlwind.

So, you and I both know that the U.S. Supreme Court sets precedent, and it says we like search warrants, and they're legal, and they're easy to get. And guess what? If you execute a search warrant, then it's almost above reproach. Of course, the defense attorney can fight, "Hey, it was founded on faulty information," or anything else. But guess what? Four corners of the document, likelihood, probable cause, all things we've heard before. They had it in this case. And Brian, I'm telling you, when you decide the when and where that you're going to make the arrest, it's everything. Should I remind our viewers and listeners of Ruby Ridge? Should we talk about Waco?

No, no, Brian, those are big picture ones, right? But this happens all the time, just as relevant.

And they're just as relevant.

And that's what, how many of these big high-profile cases where this occurs? Same thing. Everyone talks about Breonna Taylor and what happened, but no one talks about, "Hey, you know, that didn't have to take place at that time and place. Didn't have to." But this is what we're getting: everyone's so focused on, "Here's the individual event. Oh, he did this at the house. He had these weapon staged. And maybe if we approach from this angle..." And then that, you're going like, "You're completely missing the flipping point here!" The point is, you could arrest that guy, like you said, when he's going to the store to buy milk, and, "Here we go! But we got you!" And have a team standing by to execute the search warrant, and when they say, "Suspect is in custody," now they breach the house. You know, and there's never going to be a time, Brian, that you're going to sell me on the fact that breaching a door or doing a dynamic entry is ever going to be easy and it's going to be painless.

Because, listen, let's, can we segue into number three and talk about this Florida caper, because I'm chomping at the bit to talk about the suspect here. So, they've got a subject that has minor contact with the law, almost exclusively through traffic tickets. He has no arrests. He certainly doesn't have a sex arrest. And they've built a portfolio of alleged illegal child pornography and things that violated federal and state law. And so, they draft an arrest warrant and a search warrant. Now, listen to me: he lived alone in an apartment complex. He'd been previously married, had been separated since 2009, and finally divorced in 2016. He has a couple of kids. He also has a pilot's license.

Brian, if we look at our own Location, Association, Opportunity—one, that's one thing on your yellow pad at home, folks. Then the second thing: Sophistication, Organization, Access. Low sophistication, okay, he's using a computer to access porn at his home, you know, in the night with his covers on. Organization? Highly organized guy. You know how hard it is to get a pilot's license and to maintain a marriage and to have kids for as long as he did? And from 2009 to 2016, they were only separated, Brian. They only became divorced recently. So, that shows a high level of organization. No domestic violence calls or crimes, right? So, no run-ins with the law. And he's a flipping pilot! So, are you telling me that a pilot is agoraphobic and only stays in his house? Come on, give me a break for a minute! This guy, everything he's about is his family, and then he has this porn predilection that he can't get rid of for whatever reason.

So, now let's take him in his house because it's just easier? No. If you take him on the street, and he does have a gun, okay? Because it's not common for pedophiles to carry guns or fight back or do this kind of stuff, right? If we catch him in neutral territory, natural line of drift, habitual area, okay, if he has a handgun, it's likely that you're going to be able to use alternatives that are safe for the public, and maybe the only person that dies is the suspect. But now you get him in his house, he's cued that you're coming, even momentarily. And now he says, "Well, I know I'm going to jail forever. I know that I'm going to be raped or manhandled or beaten in jail. Look what happened to Dahmer, and Dahmer was only a cannibal!" Do you get what I'm trying to say? Right? We don't like child sex predators. And he says at that moment, in that time, "Not me, not now!" Do you get what I'm trying to say? "I'm gonna fight back! Shoot through the door!" Do you think that he saw the emotional content of what he was doing at that point? No, he went completely to black, Brian.

Yeah.

And he started pulling the trigger. And the next thing was, "I'm going to retreat into my home. I'm going to have a cup of coffee, then I'm going to blow my brains out." That's exactly what happened at that scene. Now, you had experienced veteran officers that were on that team going up to the door, and Brian, they died, and I'm so sad that they died.

Yeah.

And I'm not going to play armchair quarterback, but I'm going to say, "Let's learn from this situation and pay it forward." Because you know, the pendulum is going to swing. Right now, they're going to say, "On every warrant with pedophiles from now on, it's going to be a raid."

Yeah, well, that's the thing. That's still that "bang thinking." Like, we haven't learned. Okay, we haven't learned from those situations. I mean, you brought up major ones that were involved with federal agencies, with Ruby Ridge and Waco, and those were massive, massive incidents that were huge. But, like we just said, this happens with local agencies all the time. We see the news where someone gets shot or here, and then it becomes this argument of what happened. And now we need to do a different entry tactics course to correct this deficiency. And then, "Let's get another vehicle to put in here." And you're like, "What? What are you talking about?" If the guy walks out to get the paper in the morning, that's when you get them. If they ever leave their home, if you have an arrest warrant, you can do it.

So, we get focused in on this, "Okay, this is where they're at, this is where they live. We need to go get them." But you, like you brought it up earlier, and we talked about that one in class. It's the lion's den. You want to walk into the lion's den? You want to wait till he's laying in the sun out at the tree, after he just, you know, took down a zebra and ate enough food to put him to sleep? It's like, "This is ridiculous! Get him after they're leaving the diner and they got a full belly and they're walking to their car not paying attention!" I mean, it's because that's the whole point: what do you think if I show up to your house, dude? You knock on my door, and it's just a slightly aggressive knock, you didn't even mean to. Dude, I'm already, I'm already got one hand on my (expletive omitted) pistol. You get what I'm saying? I mean, you hear that, you're like, "Oh, what the hell was that?" You instantly go right to red. You know what I mean?

You're so right on. So, let's compare it at street level to other things that we know that have happened. That's a scientific method, as we take a look and see if precedent has been set. There are thousands of cases where a drunk student from another country came over to stand with the family and misses the house by one or the apartment by one and gets gunned down by a frightened homeowner. Yeah, now there's a language barrier, there's this, there's that, a little bit of alcohol involved. There's other cases where a boyfriend tries to sneak in on the girlfriend and gets gunned down. All of those are part of the problem set of having a geographic castle that you're trying to protect, even psychologically.

So, we have sociologically, wherever you go, you want to protect it. We have psychologically, your home is your castle, and we want to fight to protect it. And then we have physiologically, the fear that sets in, Brian, the anger and the fear. Okay? All of a sudden, we have to deal with these emotions, and now if we have a weapon, or they have a weapon, guess what? It's hard to contain that.

But now let's slow that down for a minute. There are millions of DUI traffic stops that science could take a look at and study, and you could at home too. On all of those—well, on most of those—when the person is arrested, the car is seized as evidence and it's towed. Now, I don't know one caper where the person fought to the death saying, "You're not towing my car!" Same thing with when it comes from traffic tickets and all those. And Brian, if there is that one case out there with an emotionally disturbed person that raised to that level, I guarantee you it's a fraction of a fraction of a nano percent of all of them, right?

So, if we know that that happens every day, if we know that even in a certain bar situation if somebody bumps into me, I'm protective on the dance floor, proximity, right? Then wouldn't you expect that the danger is heightened when you're going to go into a home, especially for a life felony, or especially for a felony here that this guy is going to do hard time and his name is going to be dragged through the mud, rightly so, right? Come on. No, he should have expected it.

No, no. And that's kind of why I brought, we brought up those examples, too. It's like, you know, I'm not probably not willing to fight to the death because you're taking my dinner table or something, right? But I am willing to fight. So, now put it at home, you get what I'm saying?

Exactly. So, let's add an emotional weight to that, Brian. You're at a soccer game, or a football match, or a rugby match. You're wearing the face paint, you're wearing the clothes, and you're in the stadium. Now, you know, my brother Jeff, when the Wings played the Avs, no matter where they were, Jeff would show up, and Jeff would have that helmet, you remember the helmet on top? And he would have a big air horn, and he would run over from the Red Wing side to the Avalanche and just blow that in everybody's faces, and they would chase him and tackle him and beat him. Brian, we do know that sometimes at sporting events it gets so heated that people are killed. So, the idea is, if we know that there are certain steps we could do to mitigate that, like Jeff, don't go, you know what I'm trying to say? Right? And if you do, don't blast that horn and the flugelhorn in people's faces, right?

So, I don't want to laugh about these coppers that were killed, because it hurts my heart. I know, Brian, we were on the road when I heard it, and I could not believe that here we are trading the lives of two veteran coppers for this ass that didn't deserve to do what he was doing. Do you get what I'm trying to say? But in his own mind, Brian, he thought he was right.

Well, that's, that's at that last minute, at that door, he thought he was doing the right thing. When that gets into, they have, they have home field advantage, right? You have home field advantage when you're at, when you're literally at home, you have home field advantage. The longer you're in a spot that's not your spot, someone else comes in, they got there later than your—your home field advantage. But that's, that's the point though, Greg, like it changes the way you think. If I'm sitting at a, you know, you got those places out here, some restaurants where you got like big long tables, so like maybe you and a couple people are at one end, but then there's other people you don't even know at the other end because there's enough room, right? Well, pre-COVID, I guess. But, you know, if you're sitting there and I'm here, you and I are having a beer and we're eating some food, and then a group comes in and sits down at the end of that table, it's 10, 12 feet away, you know, a big long table. But still, I now have advantage. They, they typically do what? They look, "Oh, is anyone sitting here? This is your table, I'm sitting down." So, what I'm saying with that is that you want home field advantage. So, if the, if the guy we're going after, we're going to go arrest, has home field advantage, I want to take that away from him. We can then have home field advantage. We create our home field, and that's the idea, because now automatically they have to do what? They have to respond to whoever has home field advantage. They have to now try and adjust their plan. So, you have to set that space, you have to set that tone, you have to figure out where that wants to be. But we don't do that, right?

How is that different from running a plate? It comes back on the hot sheet. It's a stolen (vehicle). The guy driving it is known to you as a suspect that's wanted, and all these other things. And so, here come the red and blues. Wait a minute. There are myriad opportunities to wait till that vehicle is penned up in traffic or. So, you got to do a balancing act, Brian. What's best for the general public? That always comes first, right? Is it legal? Okay, that's tied for what's best for the general public. We don't want to have to kill every suspect that we arrest, even for a felony, and we certainly don't want to trade and say, "Okay, so the new rule is now two federal agents per pedophile." I mean, Brian, we can't sustain that.

So, then I'll take you to your king of the domain, the home field advantage one. So, I don't tell jokes because I'm horrible at them, but I'll tell you this: when a guy's walking around with a teenage kid and they opened the wrong door while he's showing him some of the accoutrements of the apartment, and they open the door and two people are making love, and the kid looks surprised—you know, he's teenaged, he's probably seen it before—but the guy looks at him and he goes, "Hey, what's going on in there?" And he goes, "Yeah, guys riding a bicycle," you know, trying to de-escalate a little bit. And all of a sudden, the kid pulls out a gat and blasts both of the people in bed. And he looks at the guy and goes, "He's riding my bicycle!"

So, the idea is territorial human beings respond with violence when all of a sudden they're faced with embarrassment or emotions that they can't regulate, and anger goes to rage. And when anger goes to rage, you have to find an outlet for that rage because it will not dissipate somewhere.

Yeah, it has to. It has to go. Anger, look, I get angry every day. I'm pissed now. I don't even know why. It's an emotional roller coaster in this big head.

But I want you to imagine him standing at the door. For whatever reason, his chime, door ring, whatever those things are called, says, "Hey, someone's here. You know, you rang." He peeks out, sees the Feds. Now he knows immediately. He's not thinking, "This is the wrong house." He knows immediately, "Oh my God, all that stuff on my computers!" Does he try to talk it out? No, he's in his home. He's got his back up against the wall, Brian. Okay, so now he's that ravenous beast, which feeds right into your territorial response. He is going to fight like a badger, like a flipping honey badger, which is exactly what he did. I think there were myriad ways to approach this other than go in the front door.

Well, that's what I'm saying. One of the things people will do is go, "Well, you know, it's easy to say that now, but like, you couldn't predict that that was going to happen." And you're going, "You can predict it as a possible outcome!" Right? Okay, here's one thing that might occur. Likely.

Yeah, likely.

Here's a likely, but here's the thing, Greg: you then have to sit there and do the cost-benefit analysis and go, "Okay, if this were to happen, is it worth this? Is it worth going?" And it almost never is. Like, sometimes it is, yeah, but rarely. You've got a kid, and this guy is a known pedophile, and the kid's in the back room, and you think, "I don't know, now he's going to kill him!" I get it. That's the problem. It's the Jack Bauer, it's the 24 (TV show), it's the ticking. No, there is no (expletive omitted) ticking clock! You got time!

So, you have to train coppers, you have to train prosecutors, you have to train judges that we have to slow down. We give the gift of time and distance, Brian. We choose when events occur. When we're in charge of the operational tempo of an event, we're much more likely to live through it and not have a severe consequence like they had in this situation. And right now, some Fed is (cursing at us) going, "Yeah, well, you don't know." It's like, "Well, first of all, pal, back off! We've been there our whole careers. Second of all, you have to understand that unless there's, for example, Brian, here's another one that's realistic, not a Jack Bauer, potential destruction of evidence." Okay, we have to hit with a no-knock, which is always dangerous because we don't want the person to have time to destroy the evidence. Well, there's another great case for, "Let's wait till the guy's (out and about)," that's right. And when he's sitting down trying on his new shoes, right? You walk up and you say, "Yahtzee!" I'm with you on this one, and I just don't see the other side.

Well, I, I, it gets into that mentality of, "Okay, we got our guy, we have to get him. We've got our case, we got to go arrest him." It's just, oh, it, this is the problem when we say, you know, we keep thinking at bang where everyone again is going to change. "Well, maybe we should do that at night now under NODs (Night Vision Goggles) and we'll sneak in through a window." You're like, "You don't, what are you doing?" Like, what, what, I mean, what reason do you have to go in there right now to get this guy? I mean, this isn't, he's walking through a movie theater full of people killing, and you got to, dude, it's time, and you got to get in there, and you've got to stop. Like, that's, there's, there's so few of those incidents. When they do occur, they're so blatantly obvious that it's time to just go and start hitting, and start shooting, moving and communicating. But that doesn't have, that, this is rare. This isn't, this isn't combat overseas. This is in the United States. It's like, we, I mean, I don't see it. It feels so shitty seeing that story because it wasn't worth those two FBI agents' lives. And so, let's approach it from there. It's horrible, Greg. They didn't, they should be alive today.

Let's go back to sociological and psychological, Brian. So, conduct this mental exercise with me. We now have all of those agents in a room, and it's well before we, you know, we have the warrants because warrants are not going to expire until the date on the warrant says you must do it within 14 days with the return or whatever, right? So, I have you in the room, and I say the following: "Hey, listen, I'm not going on the raid. I just want to come in and discuss it with you because I'm your chief supervisor or whatever. I'm the SWAT team supervisor. Hey, listen, what if this goes sideways and this guy's got an AR (rifle) behind the door and he decides to, you know, blast through the front door? Are we ready for that contingency?" And then the guy goes, "Well, we'll have the SWAT team. We'll do the stand down with that." Okay, how far was the body bunker? How far was the ramp? The female was killed instantly. The other guy returned fire, but he died. So, here we are talking about heroes after the fact, from "bang" and to the right of "bang," rather than sitting in that room in a clear light of day when nobody's under pressure and say, "I want you to consider that we may have a death today. We may have to kill this guy. We may have to die." Have the prosecutor in the room and go around the room and go, "Yeah, but we've done this before, and we have a high likelihood of success on this one." And then say, "Okay, why? Sell me on it." "Well, because this guy has never fought, and he's there." "Okay, well, what if he turns the other way? What are we going to do?" Brian, that role-playing exercise that would have taken 15 minutes is not a what-if game. It's not a—it's a likelihood game. And that likelihood game, this situation, would have saved some lives. I feel that's my opinion.

Yeah, and I don't, I think because they become routine, and part of the reason why it's always been done this way. And, you know, it does, because, "Oh, well," like you already gave evidence, "Well, he's never had anything more than a traffic violation. He's never had anything, he's never had these domestic violence issues. He's never shown any of this." And someone goes, "Okay, it's just a routine thing, we'll go in and get him." But that's the problem is that, if that's—that's the whole point we're making is why is that the routine? Why is the routine to walk into the lion's den and throw some flashbangs in there, or not just try to walk in there and talk? Like, what, what is the point of this? Like, it's just, it's just absolutely not worth it. It's not, there was no impending, you know, there were, you know, there's no exigent circumstances that would require you to immediately walk in there and shoot the place up or do whatever you have to do. Like, yeah, I mean, it just, it blows my mind this continues to happen. And what's the answer? "Well, let's get a new shield and a new..."

Talk about that. We go to toys. Let's go buy some more toys. Brian, folks, just shared with you the knowledge of search warrants, the laws of evidence, the rules of evidence, by saying "exigency" and he said "emergency" earlier. So, those are two recognized exceptions to the search warrant rule that go all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court on numerous cases. So, that becomes case law, which becomes the law of the land.

So, if we take a look at those, only what's this a situation? Check in the box, Brian: yes, no? Then the next thing is, is there a high likelihood that if this goes sideways, somebody's going to get hurt or killed? Yes or no? Is there another place we can execute it that has a higher likelihood of success with a lower likelihood of potential violence? And then you're going to get some young or old copper that's going to yell, "Hey, we're cops! We got the tens! Let's go get this guy!" And you got to stop that bravado. That bravado, Brian, that bravado will get you killed on the streets of Chicago and Detroit, but it'll get you killed in combat, too! You know, when you're not checking your five and twenty-five when you dismount. "I gotta be the first!" That's a classic. "We got this!" No, you do not got this. You do not got this.

You know, and I'm telling you, part of it too, Brian, is that we don't study the psychology of offenders deeply enough. For example, you said earlier about this guy being very organized, and then I mentioned the scale of Organization and Access. Let's talk about sophistication. Low sophistication, just like the coppers' entry. High level of organization, just like the cops' entry. So, they're equal there. Who owns access? Coppers say, "We're going to force access." Okay. Home field advantage? Advantage means you're going to deny access. So, right there you have scientific levels of friction. So, what do we know comes from friction? Geographically, if you have tectonic plates that shift, Brian, we have an earthquake, we might have Dante's Peak. You get what I'm trying to say? I watched that at three o'clock in the morning, so that was in my mind. Did you know that the female from The Terminator—can't think of her name right now—you know, she got a twin sister? Didn't know that. But I don't know where I'm going with that argument, but listen, that friction can create a pearl. That friction in the earth can create a diamond. So, any time that you have it, you got to look at likelihood, Brian, and go, that pressure's going to go somewhere. And that guy internally, when he went internal, Brian, he turned into a killing machine, and he was a good, efficient killer as most people do, especially in that situation.

Right. Especially where there is no outward signs of violence, so they don't go outward, they go internal, right? So, they go internal. So, maybe he, you know, okay, look, you're getting into the psychology of the offender, and I would say that is studied, and I think it's done incorrectly. And it's done in terms of, I look, it's not that that information gleaned from people who study those offenders is not operationalized well. I'll put it that way.

That's a great way of saying it. And it's certainly not taken by law enforcement and studied and rehearsed, I'll tell you that.

That's what I'm saying. It's not put into something. "Hey, what we know from him? Oh, well, he enjoys..." That it always comes down to some horrible, crappy thing about the person that we can't use. That information is useless to me going on there. I just think that you should back up the original point too, real quick, because that point was well made, and I don't want our scientists in the audience to miss it. Okay? So, you take a look at "I Don't Like Mondays," Brenda Ann Spencer. And listen, everything that I've read about Brenda Spencer since the incident wants to dissect Brenda Spencer and that Christmas gift she never got, and the two-toed thong that she wore to swimming that rubbed her the wrong way, and she told daddy, "I'm gonna kill." Okay? All of that horse crap, that's what I'm talking about operationalizing first in the scientific community, Brian.

So, first, the scientific community should say, "Here's the psychological profile of the offender. So, don't get the gremlin wet after midnight. Don't feed it, you know, don't do that." Okay, so I would like that first. That's the first failure. Second is the chief of police of an organization isn't reaching out to the psychology community and saying, "Hey, listen, could you come in and give a course once a year on the psychology of an offender, how we can break that down?" Detectives learn from other detectives, Brian, and that's what hands this bad institutional knowledge right down the pike. "Hey, we're going to go get that guy. We're going to boot the door. SWAT team's going to be on hand." And you only know from your experience, right? So, we know, "Hey, any time I've dealt with something like this before, it's always gone this way." Yes.

Well, that doesn't mean it is this time. Or there's some other confound in there, or there's some other contributing factor that you didn't see, right? And this is with all of them, why we, when we, when we do this in real time prior to an event, we take into account all of these things. And it's a question game. Okay, well, it's the "what if" game, but it's not the made-up, you know, stupid ones that everyone gets into. It's, "Let's realistically see what they can, what what this person has access to. Are you trying to create access? Are they going to then try and deny you access? If they're going to deny you access, how are they going to try and do that?" You know, I mean, there's all these different things that you can get into. But I mean, it just comes down to that, why go into the freaking lion's den and do this every time? Like, that's always our mentality.

And I know part of it, you know, with military stuff, it's like, "Hey, we got a bad guy. We got to go in there, get him." "Well, can we send a missile?" "No, because it's in a village next to a school." "Okay, so we actually have to send people." "Is this, we send a robot?" "Well, yeah. Is this worth it?" So, you're telling me this person is not worth the loss of life from a Tier One military unit or something? And yeah, that decision is made. Yes, meaning there's, there's casualties. It's combat, so there's automatically, we know people are going to get hurt or die. Let's mitigate it the best that we can. Well, that's different than these situations. It really is. We do not have to look at it like that. It's, "How do we do this so that absolutely no one gets hurt?" You know what I'm saying? That's the idea.

You're so right on. And let me tell you what I feel. I feel that unwittingly, these Feds have assigned their names forever to the wrong type of thing. So, and let me be clear about this, I'm not disparaging their names. I'm saying that somewhere right now somebody's drafting up legislature because if this guy didn't have an extended tubular magazine on his weapon system, or somebody else—yep. And somebody else is changing policy and saying, "From now on, when we execute this, the Land Rover has to be on there, and we have to cordon off." You know, Brian, we don't have to do a knee-jerk reaction here. What we have to do is we have to say, "What's the proximate cause?" Okay? Of these officers being killed. And then the very first proximate cause is, "Hey, it's a suspect!" Yeah, but I mean, let's go through a detailed analysis, Brian. If we do a high-risk entry, the words "high-risk" on its own give a higher likelihood that there's going to be danger of violence. So, that's where I would say we have to send it back. You know, remember what did they call that in the movie, the zombie movie, World War Z, the 10th man rule or something? Where if everybody is unanimous, they have to send it to somebody that goes exactly off the thing. They have to fight for the—I'm advising you to do something like that. Yeah, why don't you sit down and discuss it and say, "What's the worst-case scenario here? And are my officers worth this guy getting prosecuted?" Because he's going to go to jail, it's just not right now.

I think picking that time and place is important. And that's what you just said. If you have, you know, at that point, when you have the FBI involved in this, which means that it's been not just a violent, it's been a federal crime has been committed. And they have overwhelming amounts of evidence because they don't go, I mean, the one thing that they do is they don't go put cuffs on people unless they're, they are in their own line 100% confident that they're going, that they're going to get a conviction at trial, right? That best in the world, they're making a case. You know that.

Yeah, they're, they're when it comes to those details, yeah. When it comes to that kind of, they're accountants and lawyers. Like, that's what they do. They build the case. Like, that's why everyone's like, "Oh, when's this federal investigation?" It's like, "Give it time. Oh, it's going on a year." That means there's a lot going on in there. You know what I mean? Like, whatever that is, and they build that case. So, it's like, you know, you have them, you have him, it's in the bag, the work's been done. Now you just have to go get him. Why isn't that the safest thing possible for him? You know what I'm saying? Why can't that be the—it's just, it's just not. I just, I keep, it's another time when I see someone die that didn't have to die, and that really (expletive omitted) it's, it just really gets me. It really does. It really does. It gets...

Let me throw a monkey wrench into your argument, Brian. Okay, let me throw a monkey wrench into your argument. You remember the last time a bunch of Feds died in Florida? Okay, and what happened after they died in that bank robbery where the tactics they used? They were outgunned by tactics. But they said, "We are outgunned by bad guys, so let's do this: let's change, let's go get a gun, let's get a larger caliber bullet." Okay, and that's hence the—hence the introduction of the .40 cal to the federal law enforcement community. How'd that go, Brian? Do you see what I'm trying to say? Let's go back and look at that incident. And by the way, folks, it's free. Go on our site. I did the lessons learned about it. But when you break down that incident, Brian, what happened is tactics failed. And when tactics fail, humans die. The other thing is, you can break contact, but you can't break contact when there's a dead and a dying agent that's on the front steps. That's at "bang thinking." So, I think what I'm hearing you say, and what I love you for, because your emotion is well-placed here, sir, I think what you're saying is "at bang thinking" is too late in the game, and that once you do it, you can't unring the bell.

Yeah, that's absolutely it. I mean, and that's you, and then now you're the—the unintended consequences, the second, third-order effects are what then changes policy. And not always for the better. I mean, you pick the wrong thing. "Okay, let's get a different caliber." "Okay, you know what, it's because he had access to this weapon, that's why." It's like, or he had, you know, we come up with, I mean, whatever the issue is. It just, and we, we attach a new policy or procedure that then affects things down the road, and generally has negative unintended consequences. And that's the issue with this. It's getting the—the lessons learned here isn't, you, we have to change the simple policies and procedural change on how you, how you take someone into custody, Greg. I mean, what, how that's not hard to do. That's not some, that doesn't cost money. That doesn't, you don't need funding for that. You don't need to change, you don't affect anyone else's rights. In fact, you just make it safer.

Yeah, exactly. You're actually protecting, you know, God forbid this happened and the guy had no idea it was the wrong guy. He didn't do anything wrong. He didn't know it was the Feds. Imagine if that was the situation. So, you now, and then he's dead, and then they're dead, and it's all for nothing. Whereas if you had these policies and procedures, and then you arrested them safely, and then went, "Oh crap, we got the wrong guy! My bad! No harm, no foul! No one died!" I mean, that's the whole thing. You look at it, so what's best served for justice?

So, Brian, let me show you a conundrum that our viewers and readers that their long time, probably understand. So, you send a copper in front of a fleeing vehicle on a property crime and they put out the stop sticks. But the vehicle is going 70. The driver is in black and runs over the copper. Now you get a dead cop. So, the idea behind the felony murder rule, which is adopted by almost all of the 50 states, says that because that was done in the commission of a felony, that now the driver is as guilty as the principal. And then he is now charged with the murder of that officer that went out there. And you know who's not named on that lawsuit, Brian? The vicarious (liability) has got names that need to be there, which is the chief of police that said, "It's okay to get out in front of a fleeing vehicle and throw those stop sticks." And right now, a chief of police is (cursing at me) saying, "He was behind the guardrail and he was this and he was that." It's not safe behind that guy. Do you get what I'm trying to say? It's following him in the pursuit off, right now, you're right. So now you're going to escalate that by putting them in front of them? Come on. Stevie Wonder could call this. This is the wrong thing at the wrong time, Brian. And police agencies, if we want to talk about re-educating law enforcement, this is the time and the place to do these things to make it safer for cops and for the citizens, and better for the law.

No, I agree. So, you have more. I'll depose you for the following questions, Greg, because you have, you have, you know, several decades of law enforcement experience as well, on top of the human behavior and military. I mean, you were a police officer at different agencies for a very long time.

I was a clown, I was a cowboy, I juggled, I did a lot. Yeah, I did that, too. I did a lot. Probably the first guy with a titanium sphincter. There's a whole lot of things that are first. Throw a dollar at me and you'll be surprised at what I'll be surprised at what I would do.

So, for this: why do we keep going to that? Why is it always the, "We need a new tool, we need a new technology, we need a new vehicle"? Like, why don't we pay for your toys?

Well, but you know, and even all these lessons learned, you have all these people saying, "Yeah, we should have done it differently. Yeah, we should have done it differently." And yet, I think sometimes we think it changes, but we still continue doing the same thing just in a different manner, right? Why is it still that, that "at bang" thinking? We're both subject matter experts in marriage because we both, we both lived through enough of them. Okay? So, if I were to write it up, yes, I could define it that way. I'm certain licensed, you know, marriage therapists would probably say otherwise.

But so, I'm going to depose you right back. I've never in my 59 years of life on this planet run into somebody that talked about their divorce and said, "It was me. I was an (expletive omitted). I never listened. I didn't do anything." Do you get what I'm trying to say? Okay. So, then after a fight, when you see a big-name fight that I lose money on in Vegas because I love the pugilists, I love boxing, you know, I love the pure sports. And you don't see the other ring come up and go, "Hey, he was just outpunched. I mean, this, this other guy was in better shape. He was better prepared." You know, it's always, "Hey, I want a rematch because you don't understand that in the third." Okay, we're humans. Humans have stress fractures. We have dimples and warts and fragile ecosystems. So, the idea of me coming into a room and going, "Hey, let's start from the premise that I don't know anything, and then let's build on that." I'm not going to get a lot of work, and I'm not going to get promoted. As a matter of fact, we in America specifically like to promote sociopaths. We like to promote those people whose psychopathy is a predator, not a follower, Brian. Now I'm not saying that those people are out there killing and raping, but I'm saying that they're devious minded, and they want to move ahead. Hell, look at Washington right now. They're still struggling with it. Oh my gosh. You know, look how far this sociopath got. And that's, I'm saying that is a good thing because he said, "I'm gonna upend the apple cart," and he certainly did that. Okay, whether you agree with that or not, that got lived up to his expectations. And guess what, Brian, we should have looked at the history on that guy. What did he do before? Was he a long life in politics? You know, he was a showman. It was P.T. Barnum. How did you, how did, what did you think was going to happen? How is everything, how is everything a surprise when it comes out of his mouth when it's the most predictable thing ever? And the most predictable thing, and you got angry and you got excited when you put P.T. Barnum in the White House and you walked in and it was a three-ring circus. Yeah, what did you think?

So, yeah, no, I, and then that, that now continues that, that cycle where they're now, it's, it's just all these, everyone's coming out of the woodwork and getting elected. But, but anyway, getting elected on what though? Finish that statement.

Junk science. They are, they are getting elected on junk science, saying, "It was this administration's fault! It was this man's fault!" We go back to this human being. That's classic. That's classic. Life is much more like Wall Street, Brian. Do you hear what I'm saying? Continue to the valleys.

Yeah, right. Yeah, but, but I, I, and I get that. But, no, I mean, I guess I saw, I saw that in the military with stuff, too, where you're like, "How do you not see where this is going?" Or, "Look at the, look at this unit before the deployment, Greg. Before the deployment, you're going, 'Hey, there's a lot going on here.'" And then, "Oh, wow, they go on deployment. Next thing you know, they're all over the news for something crazy that they did." And that happened. You're going like, "Dude, it was, it was right there in the room when before they even left! How did you not see this going on?"

So, you hit something right on the head. So, Jesus was betrayed by an insider threat. So, insider threats have been around. So, when I sold the insider threat program to the military to save lives on both sides, do you get what I'm trying to say? The one thing they said is, "Well, can you show me precedence?" So, I handed them a Bible. They go, "That's smart. Can you show me more precedence?" Brian, what happened when the Brits were pulling out of Afghanistan? Do you get what I'm trying to say? They were hit all the way till the day that they left. So, yeah, you can expect this ever-increasing landslide of violence, and it's going to be done by what happened to the Brits. It was going to be done by an insider threat. So, then once we identify that it has historical perspective, Brian, now it's information science to say what's the likelihood? And guess what? Good information science leads to intelligence, Brian. And now we can turn that into operational intelligence, which can save lives.

Well, it's better decision-making, right? You have to have a pure piece of information, ask those questions to make those informed decisions. And I think this, this is what we're getting at, is you just brought up information theory and decision theory and learning theory and all those different ideas. But that's the point: we don't look into that, we don't study that. And I think we do, you're exactly right, but not enough to it. And it's, I think we forget sometimes because we're so down in the minutia of everyday life, of just everything, even in your job, especially in your job.

But so, speak to the Florida incident with the federal law enforcement officers. And I'm sure there was, you know, local, state, and county, whatever, there as well, as part of this investigation and task force and all that stuff, right? Is that, you know, we're so focused on those minor details, is we don't take that time to realize like, "Hey, we can, we can do things that when we want to do them. We can manipulate this situation so that it happens when we wanted to, not when that suspect wants it to, not when, you know what I mean?" Like, that's the whole point is that it's taking that advantage, that home field advantage, so to speak, to go with the topic du jour. But that's the idea. You, you can't, but that's the same thing, dude, when I talk to Mikaela (likely Mikaela, a name) about something that's bothering us, we're having an argument. Like, "You know what, I think right now probably not the best time. She's super busy with this, that, and the other thing. So, you know what, I'm going to hold off. I'm going to wait a couple hours and then have that." And then guess how it's going to go? It's going to go much better. But that's the whole point is that we get so focused in the minute right now that we don't take the time to sit back and, and go, "You know what, maybe it's this."

I actually just read the guy, George Shultz, died. He was like Secretary of State under Reagan, and he's 100 years old or something. He said he was famous for he had this one hour out of his day—I don't know how often he did it—where he shut the door to his office. Only two people were allowed to interrupt him: his wife or the president. That was it. He said, "No one else can interrupt this hour." He sat there with a pad of paper and just doodled and thought and did nothing, didn't focus on anything. And that's what he was during one of those sessions where he went, "You know what, I actually think we got this Gorbachev guy is serious, and he actually is trying to, you know, reform the Soviet Union." Because everything up to that point was like, "Ah, it's another bunch of BS. It's none of this." And then he sat there during one of those hour times and went, "Hey, you know what, damn it, we're doing this wrong!" And then changed the policy. The point is, what did he do? He gave himself the gift of time and distance, took an hour out of the day to go, "Hey, is this the right time to execute this policy?" And that's what we're talking about right here, whether it's our personal or professional life. I think it's the same thing. It's just we get, we get so focused on the minutia.

So, you're right again. So, let's do this, Brian. Let's rely on the word of SMEs (Subject Matter Experts), let's rely on the word of law, let's rely on the word of science—things that we've learned historically that we can support and defend. Then let's take a look at historical perspective. So, we're in Nashville with the first part of this caper with the kid getting gunned down. So, let's look back at the Nashville bomber. We recently had some talks and arguments with different people about it. And when I say "arguments," I mean open discourse arguments where people disagreed with your opinion. But my legal opinion is, if you take a look back at Bloody Sunday, the IRA was doing attacks. After that, they tried to get six car bombs into the U.K. from Ireland to England. They only got four through. Of the four that they got through, they parked them at different locations. And learning the lesson that if you turn the public against you, you're never, ever going to get them back, what they did is they started announcing from prerecorded messages in each one of the bombs an hour before that, "Hey, listen, get out of there! This is a car bomb! It's going to detonate!" They warned everybody. Okay, now where did we see that repeated recently around the holidays? And then somebody comes up and says, "Oh, their intimate knowledge of, you know, the phone company in this." Brian, did you ever drive by that AT&T building in Nashville? We both did. It's huge. The other thing is, you don't have to look very far. It's the one with a bunch of antennas on it. Maybe that's critical infrastructure and massive cooling towers on top. Like, if you made the announcement, "Get away! This is a bomb!" and you remained in the vehicle, Brian, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a suicide is just a suicide. I'm just saying, this could have been predicted. At "bang" gives you no green, it gives you no freedom of time and distance. And if you don't understand the overarching necessity of "left-of-bang" thinking, don't go and buy the book. Call the experts. We'll come to your place and show you.

And I think that's the, you know, you talk about time and distance. That's what I, I think another way to describe that is what we're calling this one, "the home field advantage." So, you're right, always wanting home field advantage. So, if you don't have it, you can create it. Right? And look, that's if you're setting up a sting somewhere, you're setting up that—that's now your home field. You set it up at the location you want, at the time you want, and you got them to come here, so you have the advantage. That's the point, right? Is that that's what de-escalation means. De-escalation means not booting in the door at 3:00 a.m. and trying to shoot it out with someone who, who isn't. It's just every time one of these happens, it's like, "This is so easy."

And let's be fair, Brian, there's a hundred or a thousand that happen in between these critical incidents, but it's not fair to put them on the teeter-totter together. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Yeah, you can't measure a win against a catastrophic loss and make sense of that math. That's an algorithm that doesn't work, Brian.

All right. I think that's kind of a decent place to end on, Greg. Anything else to add to that? I just, I, I don't want to be beating that dead horse. I'm going to get letters on that comment even. I just thought about it when I said it. But Brian, this is a function of training. Training, and in some parts, education that are going to make a stronger, smarter, harder to kill. That's, that's mine.

All right, well, yep, on that note, hey, don't forget to check out our Patreon. We've got extra stuff on there and more coming. Check us out on social media, follow us along. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with your friends. Hit up a review at the bottom of it. It helps kind of spread, spread the message a little bit. So, thanks for everyone for tuning in, and don't forget that training changes behavior.