Left Of Greg 095 The real meaning of John Boyds OODA Loop

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Let me know when it says that we are live, Greg.

Okay, this is great. We're going live again, a couple days in a row. For those of you just listening, we also live stream, excuse me, to Facebook. So you can always follow me on there. The link is down in the episode details, and that way when we pop up and go live, you can follow along with us.

But today's topic, Greg, we are going to be discussing something that we've seen a lot of people probably heard it, or heard some version of it. And what we're talking about is Colonel John Boyd and his OODA Loop that he came up with.

So, the OODA Loop, of course, stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. And according to Boyd, the guy who wrote it, it's a decision-making cycle, right? So, a person can process the cycle quickly to observe and react to unfolding events. And the idea would be to do that more rapidly than your opponent, and then you can kind of get inside their decision cycle, interrupt it, and then you have the advantage, right?

So Boyd, originally, I think I'll jump real quick into Boyd. Does that sound good, Greg?

Yeah, great way to start here. You know, we've got viewers and listeners, give them the 4-1-1, and then you and I will dive in.

Yeah, so real quick, John Boyd was a fighter pilot, Korea time frame. He was in the Air Force. Before that, studied economics, industrial engineering. He got commissioned, became a pilot, flew a bunch of missions in Korea. Also taught at what was called Fighter Weapons School. He did all kinds of stuff. He did mathematical analysis for the F-15 program, and he came up with what was called Energy Maneuverability Theory. So, without getting into that, it just became the standard for all fighter aircraft design after that. Basically, came up with a model to go, "I can take into account all these factors, and we can test it prior to building the actual airplane so that they could have a better way of developing aircraft design."

He was a very, I would say, early proponent of different types of mental models, Greg, before that kind of term really came around. He was kind of a pioneer on it. So basically, that's a little bit about Boyd, his stuff. Then when he came with the OODA Loop, yeah, he was kind of talking about fighter pilots, but then as he got into it and studied it even more and took notes and wrote about it and spoke about it, it actually then went into basically maneuver warfare, right? And the Marine Corps really latched onto it, and he helped kind of the people who wrote original warfighting manuals for the Marine Corps from when that was being revised back then. A lot of what went into it came from Boyd's input, right?

So the whole idea, he came up with this very simple or very elegant way of articulating a decision-making process of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. Now, some of you listening, you've probably heard someone say that before or watched a video on YouTube or something. And from my experience, what I've seen is that term is extremely overused and not only overused, but often used incorrectly or kind of simplified and not giving it the credit that it deserves. Does that sound like a good framework there, Greg, to at least start the discussion on?

Yeah, I think that you nailed it. And my thing is that I'll simplify it, I'll street it up. So, I remember the very first time that I had to read a book and talk about it in class, it was Jonathan Swift's 1726 novel, Gulliver's Travels. I remember that one. I remember, you remember that?

Okay.

So, I remember reading the book and then going into class and having the instructor tear me apart because I had no idea what I thought I had read. That's John Boyd and that's OODA Loop. So, let's talk about some framing here. First of all, John Boyd made a drawing, and everybody oversimplified it, even in his time. Remember, he only died in '97. People think like this is some, you know, sage guy that lived back forever time, and that, you know, all the great beards are sitting around studying. One, he didn't publish a lot. Two, he only had one drawing, and everybody said, "Well, it's a loop. It's a loop." So they drew a loop and they said, "Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. This is the way it looks." And I've seen the representation over and over and over. They oversimplified the hell out of what he was saying. And certainly, if like Gulliver's Travels, you didn't read the CliffsNotes version and you didn't read the little comments, you were going to get lost in it.

If you think for a minute that a fighter pilot is saying that you have to take a knee in aerial combat, and your loop has to spin faster than the other guy's loop—now that's true, but that's how rumors get started. That's how the Bigfoot video got started. And then what happens is it becomes larger than itself and everybody latches on, Brian, and they start writing their interpretation. So are we going to talk about John Boyd's OODA Loop, or are we going to talk about an interpretation? And I tell our audience, stick around because we're going to talk about Boyd's OODA Loop and what he really meant.

Yeah. That is the beginning. That's what I would challenge our listeners.

No, and that's good.

Because, you know, like we said, he kind of came up with this. This has become an operational kind of framework, but it can be used anywhere, right? So what he's doing is trying to articulate a decision-making process right there in the scene, in the middle of an event, but also then you can apply that to an operational layer or strategic layer of that, right? The things constantly need to be, it's basically this loop that's constantly being updated with more incoming information, but you have to kind of sift through that information as quickly as possible.

And what he was basing all this stuff on was a lot of different science. I mean, you know, Gestalt psychology, neuroscience, game theory, utility theory, all of the stuff, physics, is what he went into. But the idea was he kind of had this idea that there are barriers that prevent us from seeing or understanding information in an unbiased manner, right? We talk about different types of cognitive biases all the time on this show and how they affect not just our decision-making, but how we receive information. And he articulated four different areas. One being, you know, we have cultural traditions, we have a genetic heritage, just our general ability to analyze and synthesize information, and then another barrier is the influx of new information. So it's hard to make sense of different observations, right? It's hard to sense make when the situation is constantly changing. So I can come up with a solution, but by the time I come up with a solution, maybe the dynamics have changed where that solution no longer applies, I guess. And those were kind of what he identified as different barriers.

And when he kind of came up with this OODA Loop, remember this is kind of like, a lot of this is taken from, like you said, his interpretation of it, his notes, notes people took while he was speaking because he was like a bit of a madman. I know some of his, I guess some of his call signs or nicknames were things like "The Mad Major," "Genghis John," and then when he became Colonel, it was "The Ghetto Colonel," right? So he kind of had all of these little monikers that I guess fit his personality.

But his whole purpose, I guess, Greg, to call it that, or reason for the OODA Loop and why it works, is he kind of broke that down sort of into a couple different areas. One being speed, right? It's a faster way to process your environment, make decisions if I can break it down to this. And then what people kind of forget about—well, not forget, but don't really understand a lot or articulate clearly—is there's a lot of uncertainty in the world, in decision-making, in these chaotic events, especially when we're talking about stuff like combat, or law enforcement, first responders, or national emergencies, or some sort of chaotic, stressful event, right? There's a lot of uncertainty. And his quote, I think it's attributed to him, is that "uncertainty is irrelevant if we have the right filters in place." And that kind of stuck out to me. Again, I don't know if he actually said that or if someone wrote that down or whatever, but it's, "uncertainty is irrelevant if we have the right filters in place." What kind of gets into a lot of what we do.

But Greg, he talked about things like Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, the Second Law of Thermodynamics. So just so everyone's clear, the reason why we're going to bring this stuff up is this is what Boyd put into this. So if you're watching a two-minute YouTube video of a guy saying, "Observe, Orient, Decide, Act," they might not know what they're talking about. That's okay, right? It's not meant to, you know, but I think to give credit where credit is due, maybe we should kind of, do you want to jump into those, Greg?

Yeah, let's stop right there. Okay. So, I want everybody at home, you got your yellow pad next to you, write "OODA," O-O-D-A, in large letters on it, left to right. Now, Brian, if you'll think of taking "Observe" and "Orient" and drawing a line straight down the right side of "Orient," left side of "Decide," to split "Observe" and "Orient" and "Decide" and "Act," okay? We are information scientists, you and I. So, information science happens in the "Observe" and in the "Orient." Okay, that's also where one needs to operationalize information. So, we're also decision scientists, Brian, and so "Decide" and "Act" is where the decision science comes in. And that's also where people have to apply the operationalization of a decision-making architecture. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

If we first think of it that way, then we look down into the stages that you talked about. Observation is not just unfolding within our environment, it's all information outside and explicit information that one might know as they're entering into it. This is where we came up with "training changes behaviors." If we move to the right of that category towards the "Orient," then we're talking about the speed with which information is processed. We're talking about what we've talked about, you know, for 40 years: the gift of time and distance. And so as Boyd was coming up with his, I think all people have an epiphany, Brian, when they see the right answer and all of a sudden the scales fall and they go, "Holy crap, that's it!" And you say it sometimes, you go, "Wow, they had that at hello!" You can see the glint in their eyes. So, if we can approach it from there and then just give a, if it's okay with you, just give a topical idea of Godel's and Heisenberg's.

Yeah, just so everybody's listening. So, on that, and this is what it goes back to a lot of math, a lot of science, a lot of physics, of there is, you know, reality is not as certain as we often think it is, right? It actually is not at all. It's constantly in flux and depends on how we're measuring a situation. So, measurement or assessment, literally just me observing something, I'm automatically changing the reality, so to speak, because I'm seeing something that's playing out in my head that might not be an accurate representation of what's going on for a number of different reasons. So, one, when he talked about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, basically that any mental model you use, right, so anything we use, or that we use to understand reality, it's going to omit certain information, right? There's certain information that's not going to be included. And I kind of have to update that to bring that in line with reality, right?

So, you just gave the scientific. So, let's give the street. The street definition is even when you think you have all the answers, that you think you have all the information, you have to be open to update and change your opinion based on new and incoming information. That's it.

And that's why I love, it's called "Godel's Incompleteness Theorem." As long as you realize that what the information you're taking in is not a complete picture, you're able to then update it, right?

I would say a good way to combat that orientation, you're exactly right, right? Because orientation also means orienting towards the potential nature of the threat. And so, to do that quickly, Godel's gives us the vehicle to tell us, "Don't get locked into a doctrine," because doctrinal information can make you slow and weak and sluggish.

Oh, yeah. And then that's his whole point about speed, right? So, slow, weak, it's weak and sluggish. Yeah, we'll definitely get to that, too.

So, one of the other things he talked about a lot was Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. And basically what that means is, especially at the level of waves and particles, right, what Heisenberg did was to kind of turn the physics world upside down and came up with this uncertainty principle and basically said that you can't know the position and the velocity of something, of a particle, at the same time, right? So you can know either its exact location or you can know its exact speed, but not both. And what that kind of means is that reality is somewhat imprecise, right?

So, Brian gave the scientific, I'll give the street again. This means that there are limitations in our ability to observe with absolutely precise activities. So, when our life depends on those observations, we have to make logical concessions. We have to therefore deal in likelihood based on those trends, not specific, because if we're waiting for the specific answer, Brian, the situation is going to unfold in front of us and we're never going to be able to get back to the decision cycle.

No, and that's a perfect example of managing that uncertainty, is a huge part of all of this, right? So, manage that uncertainty, in that all reality is imprecise and uncertain. So, it's more so, I can't be so focused on figuring out exactly where something is in time and space because by the time I figure out exactly where it is, it's no longer there, right? I mean, that's kind of what he means by that speed and literally from the terms of him being a fighter pilot, looking at a radar and looking at a plane and trying to determine specifically exactly where it's at, and once that's determined, it's technically no longer there. So that's where that speed of decision comes in, right?

So the next one he talked about, Second Law of Thermodynamics, you know, which is about entropy, right? In any closed system, entropy is always increasing, right? So things always want to fall to its chaos, to its lowest state of order, and then energy spreads out and becomes disorganized, so to speak, right? That's a basic kind of definition, I guess, of what entropy would be, right?

So, let me go a little street. Brian uses entropy. I applaud that he's sciencing it up. Let's just talk of order and disorder. Outdated mental models lead to a greater degree of disorder. That also means that if you're relying solely on file folders of your own, if they're dated, that can get us into trouble, too. So the idea is refreshing the information, that's where the loop comes in. I have to update the information that I'm seeing, and I have to do it routinely. If I don't do it routinely, then I may be operating on incorrect, disorderly information.

No, and that's perfect because what that allows is kind of that next point that Boyd was saying, "This is why the OODA Loop works," is that you then become inherently unpredictable. So you as a person can become unpredictable, which makes it much harder. Remember, he's talking about it from the perspective of military, fighter pilot, right? I'm now operating at a faster tempo, and now what I've just forced my enemy to do, or that adversary to do, is try and figure out what I've done. So even if I'm caught off guard or walk into that ambush, if I can get into that unpredictable mode, it makes it harder for them. Now they have to react to me, so now they're behind the power curve, right?

Yes.

So I would say add one more scientific definition, Brian, if we can.

Yeah, and that's Gestalt. You get what I'm saying. And you've got it in there anyway. So, folks listening or watching, the brain creates order out of chaos, okay, using vision. It's going to organize the missing pieces into a whole picture whenever there are gaps, even if the information is wrong. And that's a conservation function of the brain. Most things that we perceive are exactly what we think they are, they are, and they're not dangerous to us. So the brain skips over those. That's where pattern recognition comes in, right? We use the same methods each day. We go to work the same direction. We sit in the same place. We watch the same shows. Advertisers rely on that, Brian. We've evolved, but our biases against comprehension haven't had time to evolve. So therefore, our perceptions of the environment were so much simpler back then: live, die, eat, do whatever, and life-and-death decisions were more quickly defined. I'm sorry, I tried to person that up.

But the idea behind that, Brian, is Boyd understood that those mental models are rigid because fighter pilots are trained in a specific way. And if you're watching or listening, and if you've ever watched any shows about Kasparov or any of the people that play chess, there's—and I don't know, somebody will call in and say there's 1100 opening moves, let's say, for chess, and then it goes to a million, seven of this. Whatever move that you're making is a feint for the fifth or ninth move that you're trying to draw in to get everything else. So Boyd said, "Listen, you're going into this and think, 'I'm fighting this other guy,' and the thing, 'No, you're fighting yourself. You're fighting his height, he's fighting the G-force on the plane,' while you're trying to decide if I'm going weapons free." And Boyd was trying to put those in cups, Brian. He was trying to put those in cups in front of us so we could understand that if the cup is full, I'm not going to learn. If all four cups are full, it's going to be too heavy to maneuver swiftly. That's why he was talking about plane design. He understood that streamlining planes was going to get inside the loop of the other pilot.

Right here, he applied this practically in that airplane design, and in that Energy Maneuverability Theory they came up with. The whole idea was, "No, you don't need something that's super fast and super this, you want something as maneuverable as possible." So he was all about, "Alright, how do you maneuver faster?" Which is why the Marine Corps adopted a lot of what he said. It literally became maneuver warfare doctrine, right? They revamped theirs based on just his concept of this stuff.

And you're bringing up the Gestalt Theory, and that type of psychology is exactly what you said. It's, you know, they focus on how humans perceive patterns versus individual components. We don't look at individual dots, we look at a line of connected dots automatically, that's what we do. So, that obviously goes into exactly what we're talking about. But this is what he was getting at, was, "We're looking at a line of dots automatically, we're not looking at those individual ones."

And the one other thing, too, that, on his main points of why the OODA Loop works and what the reason why he came about, is one of the big takeaways, too, is nowhere really in his work did he ever say, "Here's what the decisions are." He was all about testing, right? But I mean, the whole point is this is a feedback loop, or this is a loop, right? And it's constantly being refined and updated and continues forever. But it's all about, you have to test that. You have to then go apply it, right? He wasn't saying, "Alright, because of this, when you get to the 'Act,' you have these three options." It was never that. It was all about just using a framework versus framework for specific decisions. Is that kind of?

No, you're spot on. So, let's street up what Brian just said. Brian just said that time manipulation is a key component to understanding your environment. But most people would see that as going faster. It's not going faster, it's being more efficient in the loop. So, the key to seeing Boyd clearly is your ability to exploit information when the opportunity is nigh, when it's the perfect opportunity. And Brian, sometimes that means slowing time down, that doesn't necessarily mean going fast. And Boyd got that at hello, but a lot of people that were listening didn't.

So, I'll street it up and liken it to a SWAT team. So, I've got a lot of experience with dead people, Brian, on both sides of the issue. And one of the things I saw earlier in my career as a "copper" (police officer) was that anytime that there was a quote "barricaded gunman," that's the way the call came out from dispatch, right? Oh, we were killing a lot of barricaded gunmen. Now, the gunman was barricaded in his home or her home—because there were females as well—completely alone after the commission of a crime or after a domestic violence. They didn't want to lose and go to jail or after a drug bust or whatever. They're completely alone. And SWAT MP5 kit, boom, here comes the ram. We're not going to let night fall. We're flash banging. And guess what? Coppers were going to the hospital and most of the time, barricaded gunmen were going to the morgue.

So there came this pendulum swing of the way we deal with things. "Let's wait it out." So I'm at 8 Mile and Dequindre, and all the SWATs are up on the rooftops looking at this house that's mixed in between these condos. It's an old and a new neighborhood. So you got houses, then a bodega, then a condo complex, right? And this female is not going with the program. So she's clearly armed. She fires off a couple shots. And now the idea is, "Let's not go in and kill her immediately and get a couple of cops hurt. Let's wait it out." Day one to night, shift change, everything else. That SWAT guy up on one roof fell asleep. "Hey guys, she got up, walked out, went to the local restaurant and was having breakfast." And in a split second, she decided, "You know, hey, are they still there?" And so they got her. The street guys coming back from the restaurant, headed for a house, "Hey, isn't that...?" And I won't give the initials or anything, but it's hilarious because she was up to hijinks, Brian.

The idea was neither of those programs worked because they were predicated on a set of rules. Boyd said, "You have rules, you have an ice cube tray in your freezer, you have all these other things, but you know what? There's all those little intangible things like viscosity and temperature and wind speed and all that other stuff that you're not taking into consideration. So instead of exploiting those, let's exploit the information speed." The speed at which the other person can come up with a counter to your chess move. And if you're faster and you can make the decisions faster than that person, you're likely to come out on top. In other words, sometimes it's better to go slow in a negotiation. Sometimes it's better to exploit as a defense attorney and get this person up front to talk to the jury. And Boyd got that. All he was trying to do is say, "This is what that looks like in a mathematical formula." Why? Because that's what he was most used to.

Yeah, well, and that exactly goes into what his, you know, he's basically a systems engineer, right? He does engineering and economics. So that's all math.

So, and can you imagine the child that John Boyd and Mike Syracuse would have? You know what I'm saying? Raised by J.J. Wolcott. Oh, God, they would have loved each other. They would have never stopped talking and drawing. That would have been an insane household.

But no, and you know, you keep bringing up the time and distance and slowing time down. And that was his whole point is, "Alright, take it again from the perspective of fighter pilots. You're flying around the sky at hundreds of miles an hour. Every second counts." And I think his, one of his call signs or one of his nicknames at Fighter Weapons School was "40-Second Boyd" because he said he could beat anyone in an engagement in 40 seconds, right? That was his whole thing. But that was the whole point. It was that OODA Loop was designed to slow time down in a sense for you to make the best decision, arrive at the best, most logical vision, fastest, with taking into account an extraordinary amount of incoming information.

And so that was the whole systems engineering of it. It was a mental model of how to process it because, like you said, you already have your tactics, techniques, and procedures. You already have your training. You have your doctrine. You have all the things you've already mastered or been to a level of proficiency, right? So I look at that as any job, right? Anytime we walk into a place, I don't tell them how to do their job. We tell them, "Hey, this is a mental model you can use to do your job more efficiently. You already have tacit knowledge. You already have a lifetime of knowledge. You already have biology and psychology that's working towards this goal. So if we filter that correctly, you'll arrive at a more logical conclusion faster than anyone else." And now your head, now that gives you, now we talk about time and distance. Maybe that, in his world of fighter pilots, maybe that's only a second. But man, is that second huge! It really is.

So, let me give you a martial arts example and a Bible example. So, read the story of David and Goliath. You read the story of David and Goliath, you've got these two opponents that are coming together on a battle space. David is definitely psyching out Goliath. Goliath is like, "Crush, killed, destroyed, been there, done that, kid, you got nothing!" Yeah. And then all of a sudden, there's an unlikely outcome because David got into Goliath's OODA Loop. Read it, study it on your own. You'll come back to me and go, "Damn!"

Next one. Musashi Miyamoto, also known as Miyamoto Musashi, Book of Five Rings. Musashi is waiting for this guy, waiting for this guy. Finally, a guy shows up and says, "Hey, I'm here." He's got his entourage. That's what took so long, getting all dressed up. And the guy opens up his katana, Brian, and throws away the sheath to his katana before the fight. And Musashi looks at him and goes, "Well, I know you're going to lose right away because of, you know, your emotions that you make before." So, I can see Boyd as a student of Musashi, seeing the fighter pilots that he's engaged with in Korea, over the Korean airspace on the peninsula, and all of a sudden going, "Gotcha! I read your book, pal!" And being able to therefore operate like, "Okay, so what you do is when the person slows to this speed, you bank left, fire your port rounds, and then dive." Or whatever, "down triangle, Brian, that's I'm dyed-in-the-wool, this is the way I was trained." And guess what? "I'm going to be able to pull the trigger faster." That doesn't mean anything. Psychological intimidation and psychological de-escalation are two sides of the same coin.

Yes. Yeah, so, sometimes you have to give of yourself to slow time down, to allow your opponent to think that they've got the advantage. And then when they lunge, Brian, you know, before I studied martial arts, I studied fencing. It became too expensive and I had to go back to the, yeah, look at you, fancy, you know, yeah.

Yeah, and I got foiled.

But I never got to say Greg, right? You guys making sticks in your backyard, that's not fencing. That's just, we called that, we called it the same.

I wore my dad's welding vest, you know, under the hood.

But the idea, Brian, was that you psyching out an opponent, like, for example, if you're an untrained person, you know that fortune favors the bold. And part of proxemics is even an untrained opponent can get into the loop. Okay, that's what Boyd was trying to explain, too. Boyd was trying to say that for every consistent model, there is the chaos theory. And if you don't take in, remember Murphy when they talked about in the military, what's Murphy's Law?

Yeah.

Okay, Murphy's Law is Boyd's Law. If you don't think that Boyd stole liberally from Murphy, every one of us that is on here talking about science stole, because we were on the shoulders of giants when we made our discoveries. And that's the truth with John Boyd.

Well, yeah, he just stole from the physicists and psychologists that went before him and said, "Yeah, wow." And the mathematicians, and then just sort of codified it in a very elegant manner. And it had not been done before, that's the key. He did it to move the dial. He moved forward. He didn't do it to say, "This is all mine," and, "No, and I barricaded off." I think that's the point why, you know, it's so important to understand realistically what he's talking about, not just spout some stuff off in front of a bunch of people like, you know, these four words, and you sound cool. No, like, he, it was, we said, he's on the shoulders of giants, right? So he operationalized these incredible theorems, these incredible concepts, scientific, very, very complicated work that went before him, and he went, "Oh, okay, here's the so what. Here's what that means for you sitting in the seat of or sitting in a cockpit of an airplane or sitting on the ground fighting or whatever the situation is. I don't care if it's in a boardroom, right? Here's what it means across the table." And if you can take all of that and sift through it using just this basic model, man, you're going to be like I said, maybe only a second ahead, but that second could mean a lot. Maybe it's a day ahead, maybe it's a month ahead, maybe it's a year ahead, right?

And exactly right. So, I think that's why it's important. But you brought something up I wanted to hit on because you said, "Psychological intimidation and psychological de-escalation are two sides of the same coin." So, what do you mean by that? I would start with psychological intimidation because I kind of see, I think I see where you're going with that, but I like that you, you're always there ahead of me. I'm Boyd-ing every time you've been with me. I'm turning Boyd into a verb.

So, we walk into meetings all the time. And so, this is the Shelley meeting. Yeah, Tuesday. Okay, hang up. This is the Brian and Greg meeting. Brian's got an agenda, and Greg goes in and goes, "Hey, piece of candy." Yeah, yeah. "Look how pretty it is out here," right? And so, Shelley, no tactics, goes for the jugular. Me and Brian, tactical, technical, he's got an angle, a strategic, tactical, operational agenda. Greg, "It's a nice day, what are we doing? Where are we going to have lunch?" So, I just need to start us there when we talk about it. So, yeah, I have to have every advantage because I'm so paying attention to my environment that I'm having a great time skipping down the street, taking photos, and interviewing people all day long. Brian, is that a true story?

I'm never on point.

So, what I have to do is I have to save my life by getting a tactical advantage everywhere that we go, somewhere through psychological intimidation. So, when we go to that restaurant to get the gyros or anything else, what I'll do is I'll make sure that I put the back of the, right? Now, people are going to go, "Gray man door, where's the door? Memorize all the people in the room." Horseshit, you can't do that all your life. It's just impossible. What else do you do? It's hyper-vigilance. Yeah, you're not going to get anything to eat. So, what I do is I put the person as close to the back of the bar seats and as close to where the is and where the people are coming out with the food. And you've seen me do it. I will pick no matter where the lady goes, I'll go, "Hey, can we sit over there?" And then I'll choose the chair that's facing that person who's now got their back to all these distractions. So the people are coming through with the trays and the "order up" and all this other stuff, and I'm going, "Really? Well, tell me more about that." And then the person starts going, and I'll say, "Oh, excuse me, hey, can I have a glass of water?" That's all psychological intimidation, Brian. What I'm doing is I'm breaking their, I'm inside their OODA Loop, and I'm breaking up how they think of these things. Now, I'm using OODA Loop and John Boyd because John Boyd gave me a napkin with it written on, and that's easier. Or I could go down and say, "Well, Yerkes-Dodson tells us that arousal," you get what I'm trying to say? He made it in a pill.

So, that's one way of psychological intimidation. Another way of psychological intimidation, I look like an old, fat, slow man. So if somebody wants to get up on my grill, I play that. "Oh, man, please, not today, I can't do that." And I crunch down and everything else. And then the next thing they know, they're on the floor going, "How is this fat old man choking me out?" Psychological intimidation. That worked as a martial artist. That worked on the street against much bigger opponents or more opponents. So, the intimidation and the de-escalation, intimidation is breaking down exactly what John Boyd was talking about and getting inside your loop, where the other one, the de-escalation is, "Look, we can both win here. Look, take the gun out of your mouth and listen, if you're going to blow your brains out, you're going to do it in a minute, so give me a minute to talk before you pull that trigger." And the longer I keep that person talking, Brian, the more likely I'm going to continue down that path and maybe have a good outcome rather than a dead outcome. Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, and I get it. And that's the whole point of the two sides of the same coin, right? I can, it's the same skillset, so to speak, that can be used to either, "I have to make a very aggressive decision right now and act on it immediately," or the exact opposite, "Hey, let's pull back, let's get some time and distance, let's calm it down," right? So, and I think people, exactly right, forget that sometimes that it's all about, "Hey, you got to make a quick aggressive decision." Well, maybe that quick aggressive decision is to pull back and get some time and distance, right? I mean, you have to take.

That's called the Willy Wonka effect. First, those biases, Brian, it's a little bit long, go on, please. Everyone, Willy Wonka got the golden ticket. Everybody got the golden ticket, thought that they were in, they were in like Mickey Finn. Okay. And you remember Mr. Joe Peck, you know, slinking around and grabbing him in the hallway and going, "Hey, you know, I work with Slugworth or whatever his name was, give me the golden ticket, give me the secret thing." Okay, life gives you an abundance of golden tickets. One, sometimes you don't see them. We're going too fast, we're going too slow. We don't strike when the iron is hot. The second part is, once you get the golden ticket, that just invites you to the game as Andy Reese would say, "Now meet you in the arena." Well, so many things can go wrong now inside of that arena. So Boyd was trying to say, "Listen, now that we have the time and we're not up there at 17,000 feet going at each other at Mach 2, okay, now is when we can sit down and break down."

And Boyd didn't care how you got through the process. Boyd didn't care about the right answer. He cared if you understood the process well enough that you had to update incoming information constantly. And so that doesn't mean it has to be a fast process, Brian. That can mean doing a check on learning in the middle of your class to ensure that everybody's at the same place on whatever it is that you're laying down as an instructor. So if you're an on-duty call, use Boyd's OODA Loop to make sure that everybody understands. "Do you understand this new policy about force? Okay, John, give me an example of what that means. Okay, Sarah, what do you think that means?" You understand what I'm saying? Doing that check on learning is using Boyd's OODA Loop to get new and encountering information to verify the knowledge that you're going forward on stable ground.

No, and you brought up a good point about he wasn't concerned about what your answer is. He was concerned about the framework. And I think we should clarify that a little bit because that's really, really important, and that's a huge takeaway. Because in a lot of these situations or interactions between people—so let's say you're in a negotiation in a boardroom or you're in an interrogation and you're a police officer, you're in the military and you're in some sort of whatever questionable situation that relies on your training, or you're just at work and something came up and you don't have much guidance, right? You have to make a decision. And I think we forget is that everyone gets focused on, "Well, what's the right answer? I need to know what the right solution is." When almost we should be focused on, "How do I do my work?" Like, meaning, "What formula am I using to arrive at a solution?" Because if the formula I'm using is sound, right, and it's valid and it works in this situation, then I don't need to be concerned about the answer because it's going to be the right thing to do at the right time, or at that time, right? Meaning, it's just like a math problem. Like we always focus on, "What's the right answer?" What did your teacher always tell you? "Hey, show your work, show your work, show your work." Because that work, because that allows you to say, "Here's the model I used, and I arrived at this solution." And then you can have an argument as to whether or not that's the right solution or fix the model.

Yeah, they then have to go, "Oh, wait a minute, we don't, instead of worrying about how you got the wrong answer, we gave you the wrong model to use. We trained you to use this model, and you know what? It turns out in this situation, that's not the correct one." You get what I'm trying to say?

I think so.

So, here's Greg being Greg the other day above the kitchen sink. It's remarkable that Greg's in the kitchen. And above the kitchen sink, one of the three lights that are LED lights that are looking down over the kitchen, one's gone. And, you know, right now it's dark this time, you know, it's dark at six in the morning, it's dark at six at night. Only moose and caribou are outside licking the windows. So, I've got to get this light out. So, I tried absolutely every tool in the toolbox to get this light out. I went online. I said, "I'm standing on my kitchen covered in sweat trying to get this light bulb out." And there was a thing called a hack. I'd never heard of a hack before. And the guy goes, "Use a rubber band or a potato. If you got this kind of light, use a rubber band, put the rubber band on your thumb and turn this way. And if you have this kind of light with these pegs, use a potato, push the potato this way and then drop it down." I used the rubber band, Brian, and in 17 seconds, I was done with the process. It took 1.7 hours before that.

Okay. So, two things kept me down: perspective bias, my own inability to divorce my prejudices and experiences from making the right decision at the right time because my perspective got in the way. The second was confirmation bias. I already knew I was the smartest guy in the kitchen. Why the hell did I have to engage anything when I had a whole toolbox full of tools that I had used for 59 years? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? So, those two things Boyd knew that. He took that into consideration and said, "Gutenberg, remember Steve Guttenberg nailing it?" Newton better. He said, "Johan Gutenberg!" He said, "Wait a minute." And Boyd said, "Wait a minute. The reason that Krulak and everybody else glommed on to him, and that chaos actual could quote him verbatim was because Boyd just said, 'Wait a minute, we're skinning our knees out there. Listen, if the process is right, at the end of the day, the sausage will come out, and it won't kill us.' And that's a place to start. So I'm not telling you what decision to make. I'm not telling you which of these is the best decision. I'm showing you how to do it."

And didn't we take that when we were doing Human Behavior Pattern Recognition Analysis? And because we were both during the same time refining our own theories into practice, I stole liberally from Boyd when Boyd says, "Hey, listen, teach them how to do it. Don't teach them what to look for, teach them how to look." And that's why if you remember back in the day, Brian, our whole first morning was enhanced optics and observation and the human eye and perception theory. Why? Because we wanted to avoid perspective bias and confirmation bias and overcome the physical attributes that draw us back into dissonance because if you're exhibiting cognitive dissonance, which Boyd, he literally sewed it. Yeah, that's why he could do it in 40 seconds. You get what I'm trying to say? And Musashi did the same thing. If you're too busy thinking about, "Why am I coming with a boat?" Or, "Where's Musashi because he was supposed to be here an hour ago?" You're not fighting your fight, are you?

No, I, and that, that's, I mean, that's a good way to explain it on a real-world level on what exactly he meant. Because he put, that's what he said, "Look, we have these barriers that prevent us from really processing information without any type of bias," and it goes into everything you just discussed, even down to the point of perception bias and how our eye and brain work and what it can and can't do and how many limitations there are on that and how little we actually see. I mean, we are literal, it's no different than looking through a straw. That's actually all your central vision can see is about what a straw produces, right? And we talk about that in perception theory, and that's why that's important. So, if you're taking in that information, understanding that everything I see, my whole world, is one biased, subjective representation of what I want it to be, I think if you start there, you can go, "Okay, now I'm getting a little bit more accurate," or "my measurement on how I'm taking things in is a little bit more clear." And that comes down to even just interacting with people, what you're observing in your environment. I mean, that's the whole point, is that, "I have to start somewhere," and starting from the point of going, "Hey, I'm really not as good at seeing and hearing and thinking as I think I am," even though I'm just so emotionally driven, I'm primed that way to think that it's often a detriment. I think that's what he was trying to do with this. And again, like you got to read his writing and then people's analysis of it because there's a little bit of difference. And he was kind of a wild man, and he's got these random notes that people would try and decipher and go, "What is he talking about?"

And I think, and my point of this is, the guy who invented the OODA Loop didn't fully understand the OODA, but he knew he didn't.

Yeah, he knew he didn't, and he said it every time he spoke. He explained to everybody, "I'm holding on to this nebulous thing, and I'm trying to hold it like this magic water balloon of answers, and I'm getting some answers out of it, but like the Magic 8 Ball, I'm not there yet." And I want to do a quick shout out, Brian. Your word spurred me to my memory, which is huge based on the size of my cranium. Everybody that's out there, if you want to read a good book—and Brian's got a reading list if you want to invest—but Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow. Yeah, great, great book. Highly recommend it.

And Brian, you and I worked back in the day, back when we were still doing FDC TD with Dr. Bill Harrison, and I'm sorry, I don't remember his son's name, but Harrison still probably has his website up, "Slow the Game Down." And Bill Harrison had us all in a room and was talking about a pitcher and the batter, and he explained physiologically and physically and anatomically how the batter, there's no way for the batter ever to see the ball and then be able to swing and hit the ball. So good batters see the pitcher, they see the environment. They break down at a molecular level everything that's going on, and before that ball even leaves the pitcher's hand, they're already swinging for that. And the really good ones know how to do it better. So John Boyd was a great batter. Do you understand? He understood the pitchers on the other team better than others, and therefore, we listen to his writing. We generally don't read the writing of the guy that died first on a battlefield. Remember old Hogan, Dave, you know, "It's better to charge against the bayonet," or whatever. You know, the idea is, as Harrison put it together back then, and it was like, "Oh, man, it was another epiphany moment in my life." He is talking about manipulating time. John Boyd understood temporal issues and how they played into your psyche, and he never said that you have to go faster than your opponent. He said you have to go faster in the loop, which might mean taking your product off the shelf and waiting 15 years before you reintroduce it to the market. That's the magic, Brian. The magic is that winning in the boardroom or the battle space means that you strike when you're ready. You exploit your strengths and the weaknesses of your enemy by hitting at the exact right time, and that might be tomorrow, that might be next Tuesday.

And you said it best. And that's the, I think to get your point across because you always say, you know, and even just with communication, right? Because you always say, like, "Oh, when Brian sends an email, it's three sentences. It's specific. It's this, is this." Because if you send me something that takes me a while to digest, and you're asking a lot, I go, "Okay, well, I'm going to take my time on that, and I'm going to respond when I have a cogent message, and I want to be clear." Versus sometimes when you and I just go back and forth and it's a long whatever, and that goes into literally the, "What's the saying? 'Hey, sorry if I had more time, I would have written a shorter email.'" Right? And that's that, that's that time loop that you talk about.

And you brought up Thinking, Fast and Slow by Kahneman, which is a great book that's definitely on our suggested reading list. But, you know, that goes into it is, you have a behavioral economist. He used economy. Yes, well, that's exactly, and so was Boyd, was a kind of, I think he had a degree in economics as well, too, which I always tell people, if you want to study human behavior and they asked what to get into, I was totally good, I say study economics because you'll actually make some money then afterwards. And you don't have to be right. You don't have to do this.

Well, you don't have to be either. If we weren't right, people wouldn't hire us anymore because they're buried in the street. But it takes a long time. I want you to think of this, sometimes we get police officers or HR people or private citizens or corporate giants or whatever listening in on the broadcast. We got three people, folks. One of them's got to be one of those things. You're a copper on a traffic stop, and you go up on a traffic stop. Even the Supreme Court—and remember this, if you are so silly that you think that judges go out and do ride-alongs with coppers, or that judges were first police officers that made arrests, they weren't. So, sometimes when they rendered decisions, they were under really poor decisions, only based on the law and not perspective because they don't have the perspective of a seasoned street vet. So, street vet, you're going up on that traffic stop and you think something's wrong. The U.S. Supreme Court has recognized you can take as long as you need to as long as you're operating under credible information in the first place. So, if your hunch is that something is wrong, and you can give artifacts and evidence to support that reasonable conclusion, that traffic stop can last four hours. And you're going, "Well, no, it can't, some attorney's going to call it." Oh, yeah, it can. And the idea is that what happens when police work is misapplied at the law enforcement level, not a corrections, not in the judiciary, Brian, in that split second walking up on the car? Cops get shot even though their body is telling them this is a bad one. That's why I stopped the guy in the first place. Something is wrong. Louisiana copper got shot at 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon. You know why he got shot at 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon? Because he was following doctrine, Brian, and he didn't think, "Hey, why do you think that me as an experienced vet cop stop this car?" He didn't take that gift of Boyd, that gift of time and distance, and say, "Before I walk up there, should I call for a cover car? Should I position my vehicle differently? Should I walk up on the passenger side?" Why, Brian? Because our brain screws us, and our brain says, "Ah, well, not today, it's 1:00. It's a sunny day. This guy's not going to shoot me, he's just going to talk to me." So Boyd knew that, too, and that's why he was talking about constantly updating your information and not relying on that. I'm not slamming doctrine, Brian. You need doctrine. You're relying on doctrine. Doctrine's not going to fix the problem.

No, and that's kind of what he was getting. Yes, that's the start. You have to know the doctrine and know what you're supposed to do, and you know the procedures and policies. Okay, but that's, and that's why we said, "Read and study." That's white belt level, meaning your training, right? Whatever that training is, okay, you've received this. You have to master that in order to then, like you, yes, we're talking about what happens past that because anywhere we go, whether that's even a private company, you walk in, those people get experience more than they realize sometimes, right? I mean, whatever their job is, like you said, HR, that person's been doing that for 10, 15 years, like they forget how much they know sometimes. So they don't use the right mental model to go through so quickly.

But everything you talked into is exactly what Boyd was talking about with those barriers to seeing, understanding, articulating, perceiving information correctly is just, we're almost genetically primed to just go with the simplest solution at the time, but it's based on very, very simple set of rules and a very simple set of circumstances. And that is survival. We are well, well, well and have been for a very long time past the stage of we're just trying to survive as a species, right?

We're exactly right. So, we're past that point, but we still have that same kind of operating system and wiring, I guess, in us. And so, we can't shed because at one point in our existence, and the factory doesn't know when it needs to open up again, so it's not going to abandon that wing. Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Because we might need it.

So, on the, if we go back to OODA, Brian, and take a look at the word OODA on the O-O, right after it, now instead of having an up and down line to talk about information versus decision theory, I would ask our viewers, our listeners, to make the letter V laying on its side, so the greater than sign. You know what the greater than sign is?

I do.

And tuck the two O's into the left of the greater than sign. Then that leaves us with the decision in action. But instead of decision in action, do what Boyd did: write down "Hypothesis" for your decision, and "Test" for your action. So, now what we're saying is the information theory, the information that we're using to come to the hypothesis, is that we believe these factors are present based on the artifact and evidence. We're drawing the reasonable conclusion, that's my hypothesis. So, now what do we do with the conclusion, Brian? We test it. And we test it, and we read the feedback, and we test it. That's our wave theory. You throw a rock in the pond, you see it go out. And guess what? Sometimes you have to be the rock when you're assessing an environment in the boardroom. Sometimes you can ping off of the person that's talking or the PowerPoint. But sometimes you have to be the rock, and sometimes you have to shake up that meeting a little bit. Boyd knew that, too. So, the interpretation that you have, the mental model of this circle with OODA, is completely wrong. And if you start there, you're going to fail. I'm telling anybody that's ever gone online and listened to these YouTube lectures on OODA, if you start there, you're going to fail.

Yeah, no, and that comes because, well, that's also because it's so overused in military and law enforcement and a whole bunch of other places, it just becomes like a lot of terms become so overused and cliché that it's lost all meaning. It really remembers what it's actually for and about and the complexity of it. And it's important to understand that one, if you're, well, if you're going to use a term, I'd hope you'd know what it really means. But beyond that, just actually playing, because right there, what you just said is exactly another great way to look at it, right? So, I talked about earlier at the beginning when, because of all the different, you know, perception biases and different ways we process information, how many barriers there are and how many problems there are with that, I have to take that incoming information and even get down to the physics level of uncertainty and incompleteness and go, "Alright, I'm not getting as accurate of a picture as I think I am." So, therefore, the decision in action, just like you said, it's better to use hypothesis testing, right? Because that's what you're doing. You're saying, "Alright, okay, I think this person is alluding to the fact that they want a bigger percentage on their contract. Let me test that." You know, that's Boyd's secretary as Boyd calling from beyond the grave.

Exactly.

No, and so, I think it's like that, having that idea of that it's, it's testing a hypothesis versus it's making a decision and acting on it also allows me to go, "Well, it's, I'm hypothesis testing here, so it might not even be the perfect answer, but it's a good enough answer for the situation that I'm in right now. Let's see how it plays out." And that kind of helps delineate it, right?

You're so spot on. And I want to go back to folks, if you're listening, if you're writing down what Brian's saying, please keep accurate notes because he's right on here. And early on when he was talking about orientation, he said stuff like culture and he said genetics. So, Brian, let's talk about genetic heritage before somebody spins out of control, just one thing out of all of this panacea of stuff that comes in, genetic heritage. Well, we talk about rods and cones in class and we talk about perception and we talk about perception biases and we talk about something as simple as day vision and night vision. And when we talk about night vision, we talk about low light. And I'm not going to get into great detail here, but people don't see well in low or no light. And there's two times during the day, you know, like the post nautical twilight and at dawn, when we see less well than we do the rest of the day, and our brain is rebooting. If we understand that and we understand the chemistry of the brain, we can exploit that information to reinforce our defenses or attack at dawn or at dusk, right? You see, we can be a better hunter to understand when the animals will be moving if we understand their vision and the size of their brain. So, when you talk about genetic heritage, somebody was going, "What the hell does that mean?" Well, that means, listen, there are certain physiological makeups of humans, and if you don't understand those human factors, you're going to fail at human performance.

It's okay. It's okay to say there are biological differences between men and women, Greg, if that's what you're getting.

I haven't found them yet, but I keep looking, if you know what I'm saying. I have the shoe mirrors, folks, and I'm not proud of it. But that was my hypothesis, and I test it every time I'm on the airplane.

No, but that's fine, right? We have different biological differences within humans. So, is that the call sign for what you're doing right now?

I have no pants on, so that is now called "The Performance." That's new information for you to process, Brian.

So, it is, and thanks for throwing that in there and completely derailing my train of thought. But I was inside your loop, right? You definitely got inside my OODA Loop there. Maybe that's what Toobin was trying to do on that Zoom call. I don't know, but it works. It certainly worked. You know, I think what you talked about, yeah, of genetic heritage, and what we mean by that and biological differences, everyone sees and perceives things differently. So, to tie that back into kind of just another way that Boyd was identifying different barriers, "Okay, here's the different barriers. Let's identify them. Let's understand them. And then let's come up with a better way to at least know that they're there, and then take in information better." So, I think, you know, I'm just trying to wrap all that stuff into a neat package of, "Well, that's great, Greg, that this is what the OODA Loop is about, but how the hell do I use that, or what does that mean to me?" And I know we've been hitting that throughout, but.

But I'm going to give you the answer you don't want to hear. I'm going to give you the right answer based on science. And because you don't understand it, stop using it. Pythagoras would walk into the room and slap you out of your chair because you're not using the Pythagorean Theorem correctly. Look, don't quote OODA Loop unless you understand it. And if it means something to you enough that you got a tattoo coming out of OCS (Officer Candidate School) and you think you know what it is, there's drive on, there's some Marine officer covering his tattoo right now. Listen, John Boyd didn't know what he had, right? He's still studying. More study is necessary. There's so much to go into. Listen, MCP (Marine Corps Planning) had it right, the Marine Corps Planning Process. There's an architecture that's going to make it more efficient for you to make decisions and process information. You're not a fighter pilot. You can use the same stuff in the boardroom, but you got to study, Brian. Training is what changes behaviors. You can't just throw it. You can't be the cross against the vampire. It's coming up on Halloween because you got to have faith that it works. OODA is a deep concept, and we can make it simpler, but Brian, if you don't study it and the idea, if you don't use it often, it's going to atrophy. It's like a muscle. You're not going to tell me I can't just walk into that next meeting and write "Observe, Orient, Decide, Act" on the top of my yellow pad and then use that. Brian, I actually lost IQ points listening to a broadcast that somebody sent me and said, "Oh, this guy does a great summation of the OODA Loop." Brian, I don't think it was a human. I think it was a mind-exploding drug that they gave me because this guy was getting auditory hallucinations. What he was saying isn't right, and that's really why I wanted to talk to you about this and do a podcast. Because many people have books all over their office, Brian, and they have all this wonderful stuff that they quote all the time. And I don't even think they, you know, there are guys out there, if you want to read and you want to study on this, there are guys and females and doctors and just psychologists and people that aren't very smart, but they're military-minded people—meaning that there's not smart in the classic sciences—that have broken down OODA. Take the time and read some of this stuff, and after a while, you'll get it. I don't understand mathematics very well, but I use it every day when I go to the 7-Eleven. Yeah, you know, so that's what I'm saying is just, you know, polish that sword before you bring it out of the sheath, practice a little with it.

Okay, what does that have to do? Well, how does Klein's Recognition-Primed Decision Making fit into this? It's a genius. Gary Klein is probably because that's another one.

Yeah. And I know we could do a whole other podcast on that, which the loop is far. But all Gary Klein stuff is gathering dust on an office in Gary Klein's massive library. The idea is what we did is operationalize it. We went outside the wire. We were booting the doors, ramming the cars, you know what I'm saying? When these geniuses in our field came up with the stuff, Brian, we were the ones that were doing the hypothesis testing out in the field. And that's what makes the difference. So, somebody can say, "Well, theoretically, I did this." We didn't do it in theory, Brian, we did it in practical application every day.

And that's a big distinction with Boyd, right? He was doing this, "Alright, yep, this is what I come up with. Let me go get in the jet and show you what that means," right? So, I think he was kind of able to do that.

And so, he also put a chip on his shoulder and said, "Come do it against me because I'm faster than you," and I've done that my entire career. So, my entire career, whether it was my military, whether it was the shooting, blunt force trauma, weapons fighting, or outthinking somebody on the street that's a criminal, I keep saying it, SMOB, Brian, "Come get some!"

Well, that's what it was, the whole, you know, "Prove it," right? He actually took that into consideration and actually was able to, "Alright, here's what I'm thinking. Here's the theoretical model. Here's the mental model. I'll show you how I can beat you." And then they ended up calling him, you know, "40-Second Boyd." That's what, doesn't Shelley call you that, "40-Second Greg?" Or is that never?

Never lasted 40 seconds. So never.

Alright. Well, thanks for that, by the way. So, you always, it was always very nice to leave me in a very somber mood. I'm now the mayor of Somber Town, everybody. So, on that, well, I don't know, I think that's kind of a good, at least, discussion of where Boyd was coming from, what he meant by that, what some of these terms mean, how he was trying to defeat these natural biases that we have, these natural barriers that are out there to us, that affect our decision-making. And he did that in a very kind of, you know, we always say it's so simple, it's elegant, right? Elegance in the scientific term. A very simple process of the OODA Loop, which is often misunderstood or misused.

But, hey, for your comment on Recognition-Primed Decision Making, Klein is a genius. Go back and read Marty Sullivan's work. Yeah, Marty was a prophet to me. There are so many people out there, Brian, and trust me, I was swinging with 16-ounce gloves in a really big, dark arena and accidentally hit a couple of greats, and they showered me with some great ideas that I followed up. And I think John Boyd, if he was alive today, would understand that perfectly. And so, we can't just throw the words out at a problem. I know we have to truly understand it before we pull it out of our holster and aim it at a problem. I really cringe when I see that, when it's just the overuse of that term that's extremely complicated.

But old 40-Second Greg.

Alright, I wish I aspired to that 40 seconds. Maybe someday.

Someday. Alright. I think that's a good spot to kind of wrap on. And yeah, I'm going to, I'll put some of the links to some of the people you're talking about, some of the books in the details, and then would kind of ask everyone, you know, to just, hey, check that stuff out. If you want more on it, let us know, reach out to us at TheHumanBehaviorPodcast@gmail.com, or share it, like us, all that stuff. Don't forget to follow us on social media because it kind of helps out a lot in getting the message out there, or go ahead and send this out. So, we appreciate everyone tuning in. Always, like I said, check those episode details. We'll have some other links to different stuff or upcoming courses if we've got it, and that you can always sign up and follow along. So, with that being said, as always, we end with, "Don't forget that training changes behavior."