Left Of Greg 025 Christopher Dorner Detonation

Brian, I think that's a really important thing that you just said. I think one of the things that the listeners and the viewers have to understand is what we're going to do is we're going to dissect pieces that we think are important based on science, and we're going to discuss it rationally from the legal, moral, and ethical standpoints of the science — opinion-based testimony of two subject matter experts — rather than conjecture and fluff and crap. So you're going to get the down-and-dirty from us, and feel free to call us on it. We're ready.

Yeah, so I'll just give a quick, real quick, background on the case for those of you who don't remember. But he was a former probationary officer with the Los Angeles Police Department, was fired for different reasons, and then in the beginning, about February of 2013, he committed a series of shootings in Orange County, L.A. County, Riverside County, targeting—there were police, civilians, including some of the police officers' families. He killed four people; he wounded three others just him personally. And then it kind of ended on February 12th, up in Big Bear, California, in the San Bernardino mountain areas, when he died in a standoff with San Bernardino County Sheriff's. There were Feds; there was a huge task force out looking for him, and he ended up dying during that standoff. So that's the basics of the case. Dorner was also a Naval Reserve Officer, which is just important to note that as well for some of the movement that he does. But that's the basics of the case that we're going to dive into. So Greg, do you want me to start with the beginning timeline, and then we'll take it from there?

If you'll indulge me, Brian, if I can get something. I'm just taking notes here.

Yeah.

Something came across my wire. I want to give a shout out to the friends and family of Tuscaloosa, Alabama, police officer Doran L. Cossette, who died just a little bit ago in a shooting. I apologize to start with such ominous news, but as we're going to be talking about...

More common.

Yeah, it's important. And Brian, what I had made a mental note for as we were starting, you know me, I'm one for grasping that opportunity for a little bit of learning here, and what I'd like to do is assign homework to the listeners or the people that are watching us and have them look up a couple of companion cases with which they can compare our notes to their notes. So, first being Kip Kinkel. I think if they go back to Thurston High School, Kip Kinkel, in 1998, up in Oregon, killed his mom and dad and then went in to do a school shooting, only got two students before the students overwhelmed him. And then fast forward to 2014, Elliot Rodger, up in Vista, California, killed six, injured at least 14, if I'm remembering correctly, at UC Santa—oh my gosh, it'll come in a second. I love Vista, Santa Barbara outside. And I apologize for that memory lapse.

Here's why I'm assigning those folks: if you're taking a look at the Dorner case, you have to cleanse your palate in between sips. And the way to do that is take a look at Kip Kinkel, who had nothing to do with the Dorner case and nothing to do with the psychopathy that Dorner felt that caused his downward spiral. Kip Kinkel was a mixed-up kid, was doing bad in school, brought a gun to school, thought it was a cool thing, it turned out to bite him in the butt. He got suspended from school. Now he didn't know what was going on, military school, the next thing, and all the pressure turned him into wanting to kill a bunch of people, then kill himself. Elliot Rodger, however, is almost identical to Dorner, much like Klebold and Harris in Columbine, and Elliot Rodger will give you a look at inside a person's psychopathy that's virtually identical to Dorner. And so now you have one that's nothing like it, and one that's very much like it. And Brian, the reason I'm saying that is because then at home they can do the comparison, "Oh, this is how I can now look at my coworker, or look at my friend, or look at that guy at the library and determine that they may be a threat."

Does that mean...? Yes, absolutely, and we'll weave those themes throughout this, how these all relate to each other from our human behavior pattern recognition analysis.

Right, exactly. That's the lens. So that's the lens. And just as we—for some of the newer folks who haven't heard any podcast before—we don't get into motive too much, right? We'll talk more about that when it comes up, but meaning someone's motive or motivation to commit a crime is not important; their intent is important, right? Because motive, I don't care, meaning Dorner did this for this reason, but his behavior is the exact same way someone would be doing it if it was a—if they were claiming allegiance to ISIS and wanted to kill—exactly!

Know your motivation.

It's so right, a bang, and it's so gosh darn, you know what, Brian, if we can tell the listeners, "Motivation is what gets people to sleep at night." You got to say, "Oh, that Jeffrey Dahmer, he ate those people, he was different than..." Yeah, because if you think that Jeffrey Dahmer lived next to you for 14 years, and you don't want to believe that it's here...

Exactly. Exactly. So we don't want to be frightened. So we've got to come in. Other than the subsequent prosecution of somebody, it's a waste of time. But again, the prosecutors do that. Why? To attempt to explain to a jury of average Americans why someone would do something like this.

Because they were curious. We want to know, "Why would...?" But it's more than that, Brian. It's more than just their fear.

You're exactly right, yeah, spot-on, spot-on.

So that guy just sitting in a jury goes, "Well, my kid would never do that," just like that husband says, "My wife would never do that," and four kids end up in a car and a bayou. You know what I'm trying to say? That postpartum depression, it's all scientific. Nothing has happened stands, but we are afraid to say, "That could be me." We're petrified.

Yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's go ahead and jump in. I'll kind of start with the timeline. Little known, or I don't know how well it was known, but this is all Feb—let's go to February 2013 when this is occurring, right? So actually, on February 1st, CNN received a package from Dorner that he had sent, something kind of implicating the Los Angeles Police Department and a challenge coin with a bullet hole in it that wasn't actually brought to anyone's attention until like the 7th of February after all this occurred. But just so everyone understands the timeline of when Dorner sent that, right? So he sent kind of his intent on what he was doing the very end of January or right there in the beginning of February.

So then two days later, February 3rd, Dorner shoots Monica Quan and her fiancé, Keith Lawrence, outside their condo in Irvine, California. So that's in Orange County, California, just north of Camp Pendleton. And Quan, Monica Quan, is the daughter of Randal Quan, who was former LAPD captain, and he was the lawyer who represented Dorner during his 2008 dismissal from the LAPD.

So, who we started this chunk, Brian, let's do it. I'm going to give you a psychotic episode because I'm going to fast-forward back some. You ain't seen in the last 10, 15 years, right? You're going to be drag—I'll ask every one of our viewers to—I have no idea what sites are out there that show photos, but I know that there are photos out there of Chris Dorner. And first of all, no gallows humor. The reason I was smiling earlier is this stuff is so simple, you got to detach emotionally from it, take a look objectively at this. I am sorry for everybody that was a victim, and I'm certainly sorry for Chris Dorner and his family and that he felt...

As absolutely...

This is what you guys...

Is a broken human.

Yeah, this is a broken human, and we're talking human performance. Here's a triangle that's really cool. If I was on some kind of drugs that would make a triangle, on the three sides of the triangle what you have, and what Kip Kinkel didn't have—here's a great example for—I love this and Elliot Rodger and talking about Dorner: on the bottom of that hypothetical triangle, put Machiavelli, on the side put Narcissus, and on the other side put Psychopathy. So it makes this triangle. And if we were going to talk about the perfect storm of a damaged human, that triangle is the lens, the acetate, that we should look through. Remember the "Deedle Doors" and what was the one where the lady looked through her little magic mirror and said, "Hey, I see Tommy, I see Billy"? Well, if we did that with this caper that no one understands, that was referenced...

Yeah, I'll look it up later. I'm old.

Okay, they know what "Romper Room" that was, it—she was looking through the mirror in "Romper Room," look it up. But the idea is that if you look back to that Anderson Cooper and the manifesto and all the other one, he wasn't a cop, he wanted to be a cop. You can write anything. And let me balance this, okay? He was a lieutenant. He was in the Navy. Look at all the photos that he posted. Look at the photos of him. Every photo of Dorner is a glamour shot of Dorner.

Yes.

When he sent that—that rifle, that—the challenge coin...

Yeah, yeah.

What he was trying to show is, "Hey, look, I'm so..." That's narcissism, okay? So a classic narcissistic objectification. It was so strong in him that if you take a look at all his photos, he was more interested in how he looked...

Yes.

In fact, in this ridiculous manifesto, which everybody should have saw, was eye-opening. It's not unlike Kaczynski (the Unabomber). He was trying to say, "You mere mortals don't understand, my word is my bond." It's so important, Brian, you said it the best when we were talking just a few minutes before tuning in: it doesn't matter what they did to him, what he did in response isn't right. So when we go back and take a look, he uses terms, and I'm going to piss a bunch of people off right now. We were in—Brian, you and I had spent a lot of time in Bahrain. Okay? Legal representatives, be careful what—listen to me, listen to me, folks that are listening. Bahrain, yes, you are deployed to Bahrain, yes, you have an opportunity to be shot and killed there. You have just the same opportunity in Cancun or Windsor, Canada. So here's my thing: the rabid, the pull-and-cruise, and all the special units we train, including Dorner's team, that's great, that's their off time, isn't it? When you talk about Bahrain, drinking, lift weights, capital Y for the yawn. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you got to be secure. But the word "deploy" pissed me off just by hearing that, and that's like saying, "Hey, where'd you spend though?" "I was in Kuwait," and that's a war zone. Yes, it was a war zone when you—when you got there, it was a Holiday Inn Express. But the idea is that, don't give me any crap. He wanted to make that look like a badge of honor. Everything he did was about his own machismo.

So if we take a look at the psychopathy: psychopathy means that "I'm okay, you guys are all screwed up, and I have no impulse control when it comes to dealing with humans that challenge my view of my ego system, okay?" And so that brings us right to Machiavelli. "I need to control my environment. I need to control my message. I need to control how you see me. I need to control how you act around me, how you—how I'm remembered, Cho." Do you get what I'm trying to say? So if we go back to Dorner, just the fact that the news media misinterpreted some of the information initially makes it hard to understand. Chris Park—Christopher Dorner went to the police academy, wore his white gloves, smile-on photo, just like in his Navy photo. Take a look at it, folks. Take a look at him sitting on the Hummer, holding his rifle. And rifle—just a photo. It came right out of the armory, and that weapon went right back in. There was no live ammo there. There was a sock in the magazine well to keep the dust out. While they were filming, now, I'm not saying that your app is that wrong. Yeah, everyone wants to do that, but we all want to do that, that's part of our ecosystem. Yeah, the problem—the difference is in his hate, fear, and death triangle that I just tried to explain very briefly, a psychology 405 that I just gave you in just a minute. In his, it was so crucial that he sweated for two years before it became so much that he had to do something about it. Just like Elliot Rodger saying, "Okay, all you women that turned me down, everybody that had that chance, which is now you're going to patch this." Okay? So the same thing as, look at his manifesto. And just, you look at Cho's manifesto and attack. It's, "I gave you, you had a hundred chances, this isn't your fault, not mine."

So Brian, no offense, and I'm not laughing, I'm just laughing at the looseness. If you've ever written a manifesto, ever, do you see what I'm saying? Where it demands certain concessions, you might be with the problem. You might—the VA hospital is not far. Water or run or call somebody, do you get what I'm saying? Right, the idea of this guy—here's the thing—he's pissed off with his station in life. That self-image is so strong that he's saying, "Hey, listen, I need to act out." So one of the misinformation, the Quans, the poor female and the male that died in the car, they made a big point out of her boyfriend was insecurity and that he did stuff at USC. But I got it, yeah, I'm peg square-hole, Brian. Again, what we're doing is we're trying to make facts fit the discussion, right?

Don't necessarily—he wasn't the target.

Yes.

And so Quan, if you—if you read deep enough into it, and look, I'm a street guy, so I don't always use the right words, and I'm sorry my writing isn't up to your standard, a Rhodes Scholar bastard, but the idea is I want you to take a look real quick back at the reports that came out. They said that he was fired from the police field training officer program before he ever was sworn copper in L.A. because he reported—he was a whistleblower and reported news reports incident. Now, in those articles, it actually shows Captain Quan as saying, "Listen, he was unjustly fired, the evidence showed her own." We didn't see in those articles when this incident happened that Quan was his defense attorney. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? This former copper is coming to the ground and going, "Oh yeah, everything was wrong." Well, how was it then that they did 18 months of an investigation, and everybody—and there was not one fact—show me a fact. And that's—that's a thing that, you know, remind everyone, he went through an appeals process. His—those investigations, events, were investigated several times, and each time they found, "Hey, it's not—there's nothing here," and they found that he was lying. Now, and just to bring the point up, you know, let's—let's assume everything he said is true, and let's say everything he said, "Hey, you know what, no, this really happened. He watched his field training officer use excessive force, that the LAPD conspired to get him out." Let's assume all that to be true. Well, in no way—in no way does that justify his actions. You don't get to go kill everyone. There's a process if you're really—if that really happened, because "Not my name is going to be cleared, I clear..." You don't clear your name by killing people.

Where's the corner? I don't—people like that didn't wait. Yeah, well, if one of those—if that's you listening right now, let's get the two CD to the VA. But and that's staying there, and there's a number of things you can—you guys can go read about this, we don't need to bring up all the details. But his FTO (Field Training Officer) said plenty of stuff about him from the first day she met him, never filed a complaint against him, you know, until he had an adverse reaction, then he said, "Oh, you know, as a matter of fact, I saw this," and you're like, "Wait a minute, you didn't say anything, it would have happened." But now what are you saying?

His first day, his first day on the job with his FTO, our state agent Lee...

Yes.

He said, so his FTO, so the first thing is, "I plan on suing the LAPD once I'm done with my probationary period." That's a bold statement. Just say your training.

It's an insane place to start. It's a broken human, and a broken human because of the psychopathy has a hard time communicating with others. See, we have this idea that it's the bald guy petting the cat and saying, "Mr. Bond," and the further you out that you're some—you're insane, you're clinically insane, but you're a devious genius. That's not—not true. We have no idea how to deal with other humans in a social setting. So it was showing those little cracks in CA, we're showing right there. And if you take a look back, and remember, you've got to be a human behavior profiler, you've got to do your research, you got to get back there and do your homework. That's like, "Oh, ____." See all the time there was a thing in one of the articles long time ago that said while he was in the Navy as a lieutenant, mind you, not an admiral, do you get what I'm trying to say? He wasn't a ship's captain. And all I'm saying that for is that everybody that spent four years in the military, they came out is now some kind of hero, do you get what I'm trying to say? Val, stolen valor set aside, but even if you'd served your country when you came out, you're not the best at what you do, you're just another guy, just like me. And and that—the gosh-darned lieutenant thing, it added an article that not only was he a lieutenant, but he was a marksman. Everybody's a marksman. If you didn't shoot the guy next to you on the range, who made your marksman? And finally he says he is him, what a big, "I found 12 red," yeah, I don't care. And he turned it in. Okay? So Jeffrey Dahmer didn't eat everybody he met, so he's not that bad a guy. Look at Elliot Rodger. You remember Elliot Rodger's manifesto, sitting in the car? Yeah, "Puny humans, you know, I'm going to kill you." And these are his words, not mine. Look next to him on the console. I watch for little things. He's got a Starbucks or a Dunkin, you can't tell what it is, but you can see the sleeve in the pit, and he's drinking from it. Okay? I—what should scare you shitless—yeah, my language is that he was in line getting there next to you when you were in line getting your caramel macchiato, and you didn't see him. That's what this broadcast is about.

That's the—that's exactly it. I think you hit it on the head with that. I think it's what this is: we bring in details and facts or that—that don't matter, that don't speak to the situation, and and just seek to kind of confuse us more in that attempt to understand because we're scared. We just—we're scared of these things, right? Well, I don't understand it, so I fear it, right? If I don't understand something, I'm going to—it's an evolutionary biological trait because the people's chemical, it's physiological, it's mental.

You're exactly right. It's because the people that said, "Oh, these folks look nice," a lot of them died when they show—so, so when you answer the door, yeah. And so we fear those things. So yeah, spiral this for just a second for those listeners that don't have a science background, okay? So I was in the middle of nowhere checking out of conexes to prepare for one of our scenarios at some range in the middle of the desert, 100 miles from the closest town, but it was a military base. And this was the most part of the base, and I was completely alone worrying about Gila monsters and stuff. And as I went into a conex, I saw a pair of legs and a pair of shoes and a pair of feet. I'd just come from briefing, and at that briefing they told us indigent people are living in the conexes out there, and sometimes they find dead people and skeletons. So the first thing, it looked convincing. So I threw a couple of expended .50 cal rounds at it, "Hey, buddy, I don't want to surprise somebody and get, you know, shivved like a prison shower." And so I moved a little closer, and you can see clearly that it was a human partially covered by sands, and I'm thinking it's a decedent, a dead person. So I kicked the foot a couple of times. The shoe comes off, it's a mannequin. My brain didn't care. Now I went through all those preliminary steps because my brain's chemistry said, "What killed him might still be waiting in there, and that T-Rex might bite you on the throat." So all of those processes that you just described so eloquently, Brian, we all have. And what we have to do is tune back into them to prepare us for going into these environments where danger may lurk. And Dorner came unglued, and he had ten years to do it, and nobody called him on it. That's what we want to prevent whatsoever.

Well, and we'll continue on with the timeline. He really produced one other term that—that we like to use is, you know, when we say "the glass is full," right? Someone gets to that—that tipping point or something happens in their life and the glass becomes full, and that's when they lash out. And we see that in a number of different situations. The guy who just down in Texas recently just got fired from work and he started shooting, did he get in his car, do it? It's full. The glass—when we get that—that glass is full, there's a million other things going on in that person's life, and then whatever this—this trigger was to just go—the glass is full.

So if we—would you—trigger, that trigger is more important than motive.

Absolutely. Different.

Okay? So he had a trigger moment that we have to identify, then his intent was clear, do you get what I'm trying to say? And afterwards we can look back and go, "Oh, well, he'd always hated people." Well, shame on you if we knew that about him and nobody said something, right?

All right, so we'll continue with Dorner here. So that was February 3rd when he killed Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence. February 4th, he posts his manifesto. Important to understand what that is, he actually listed—said, "I got her goods reports." We listed at least 40 actual law enforcement personnel by name as targets, which were also included was Randal Quan and his family. Then police went—police went, "Okay, he likely killed Monica and Keith." Go ahead.

You're the most studious guy I've ever met, you know that. That's oriented. Yeah, I know because I hang around with a bunch of fluff. The idea is, you're detail-oriented to everything. You're taking notes, I'm taking notes. We want to make sure that we're putting our best foot forward and everything. When was the last time you wrote down 40 names of people?

Exactly. I don't—never. I'm not a...

Yeah, I don't think I've ever wrote—I write more than anybody I know. I don't have it around—I don't know 40 people. I serve 40 friends. Even if you want to—even if you've got a wild hair, Mandy, and you decided to go on this day and and write down everybody you met ever in your entire life, which would still be short of 40, but would be—have you ever done that? So think right there of what was going on in his mind when he sat down and first said, "I'm going to write a manifesto," which is amazing to me. And the second thing is, "I'm going to go out and I'm going to shoot this coin. I'm going to send that to a guy at CNN. I'm going to write this. I'm going to list these people." All of these people—that's right back to that triangle we're talking about a psychopathy, and it's clear. And there's time now to do what the coppers didn't—try to rein him in. So the coppers put out a warrant for him and probably an APB (All Points Bulletin), all right? But people think a BOLO (Be On the Look Out). People—I don't think a BOLO means that you're going to change what you do and you're going to start going out looking for this guy. Now while they assigned security teams, we both know that they did the conference—did to some of those families and Jaba about the BOLO and the photo and everything else. Do you think—and this is just me, speculative here, I have no idea what's going on with this head thing, but it's leaning that way. So can I talk like this for you? The idea is, let me ask you this question, Brian: do you think that any one of those folks at that time, not knowing that the Quans had been killed, some of the people are just reading this manifesto, Anderson Cooper looking at the coin, do you think anybody thought at that point, "Oh my gosh, we got a serial killer! Oh my gosh, we've got this—this wild, ramped-up person that's doing it!" I can prove to you that nobody believed that, and we both know that's denial. Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Right, because people were still trying to placate society by saying, "Look, we're going to look into these allegations of wrong..." Yeah.

And that's—that's a good point to bring up right there. What my—what the LAPD was doing and other law enforcement agencies were doing was—was doing that, giving press conferences, "Come on, Chris, hey, you know, that's enough, enough people of that. We don't need to hurt anyone else." And what part of, "We psychological and good..."

Okay, I'm not going to bash him, but go ahead. But put up what I'm saying, in same thing, "All right, folks, hey, we got it." It's just that once he's made the decision to do it, it's not going to stop. It's not realistic.

Standard, and we're only doing that so we can sleep tonight, saying he made that announcement. Yes, and that's the only reason why those announcements come out. They did that, did nothing. Crazy. He's not napping. And we were trying to save the life hostage, it would be a completely different scenario.

Hear that on the radio and go, "Hey, you know what, you're right. You're right. Enough. Just pull over and put his hands," like when I was typing the manifesto, I should have thought of that. Yeah.

And we're not making light of this, folks. We're just frustrated. Yeah, every news article that we see in every exposition about this, and everybody that talks about this, focuses on the ridiculous instead of looking at the big picture. This was a broken human that needed to be stopped, and at that moment there was no amount of energy that was going to go towards stopping him that way. It was all the wasted calories at that point and going to find him. He's not going to go easy. And we will talk about this.

But but that goes into then how does law enforcement—you think about yourself as a law enforcement officer approaching the situation. What—what artifacts and evidence do I have to say that he's going to likely give up? Anything? Yes.

Yes, and if you do, then exploit it because at this point you have none. You haven't had their everything, it's anyway. He even says in the manifesto, and I hate even saying that word now, yeah, because it's lost all meaning. But he said manifesto, "I'm not going to live to see my name cleared," so he intended as he wrote that days before he delivered it that he was going to die. So it happens right there, yeah.

Right there.

You know, you know he is going in it to win it, man. He is going to fight to the death. The resources...

But it didn't—in this instant, no.

It didn't in this instant, Brian, when he shot Quan and her boyfriend, he shot him from behind in the car while they were seated. Okay? Did he go up and face him and say, "Hey, listen, I'm dueling you"? Do you go what I'm trying to say, "We are about to fight here because you want me"? No, it was an ambush killing your next coppers that are going to die. So let's listen, chill out to talk about looks right into it. So obviously, February 4th, he, you know, the word gets out is of all those names, these people that he's going after. The 5th, he was down in San Diego, he checked into Naval Base Point Loma to stay there and then skipped some check out procedures. But there's record. But what does that tell us about him? Yes.

Hey, what does that tell us about him? He was so focused on his thing, he wasn't following your rules anymore. But I have my rules and this goes in—this goes into doing the predictive analysis. So Xavier, where is he going to go? When people are on the run, when you need to go somewhere, if you're going to go, you know, you want to take out your revenge on someone, you need to look for familiarity. So he's a good—all places, he's going to go home, he's going to go to a place that was his home. So he went there on the 5th, and then I know on the 6th, I don't think it was reported till later, but on the 6th was when he was spotted because he tried to steal, you know, some 47-foot boat from a guy in Point Loma, and then the boat owner said he was like tied up and got threatened with a gun, and he's gone to both the fleet of Mexico. So I know that was reported on the 6th, but let's go right to the 7th.

Well, in one word, and I hate to keep doing this to you, Brian. You said earlier, "Let's assume that everything you said was right." So I'll throw this in for the investigators that are listening out there, you have to at that point say one of two things: one, is this broken human clearly trying to flee to Mexico, right? Just wasn't able to steal this boat that seems unlikely, seems unlikely. He completed everything else that he wanted, yet he—okay, so what if he came out thinking, "Hey, listen, I've already killed, I have to throw them off the scent." Yeah, we're in San Diego, let's make it appear he bought snorkeling equipment, we're just going to swim to Mexico, do you get what I'm trying to say? Sorry, the idea is, what if that was a ploy, Brian? What if he was so thinking about his next move and that he wanted to give a red herring? He wanted law enforcement to start watching the border.

And that's—that's a possibility because he, you know, he behaved differently with those people. If he really had the—the if he really had the organization to why did he leave with us? Brian. Yeah, exactly. So it's a good—good point. We could—we could deep dive that forever, but yeah. Well, let's—let's continue on. So that was basically leaves the San Diego, where heads back up northeast, so east of L.A. to Corona, California. So this is kind of important timeline when I put these times out and I say like 01 or 03 and it was like 01:15 or 03:20, I don't care. It's the purpose is to take away exactly like map away. It wasn't a map overlay and kind of this happened yeah before or after the next thing in history in school you don't need to know 1662 you don't know what happened on it. So on February 7th, so remember the at this point bring up is about 01:00 was right after midnight. It's in the middle of the night. So you had two LAPD officers, they were, I guess, en route to go to one of the protective detail, security detail, here, detail the practice—one of these officers that was named in his manifesto that they're calling it. And someone said, "Hey, I spotted this guy, I think I saw him at a gas station." And so they want to investigate. They started following a pickup truck, and Dorner gets out, fires rifle, and it—that one it just grazed the head of one of the officers.

That's called bad guy luck. Yeah, bad guys, they pull up the gun just to fire a couple of noisemakers in your direction and kill three cops. It always happens, but let me throw one at you right here. We're doing Marines, we're doing training back in a combat honor days, and we had a couple from 3rd Marine up in Hawaii. A couple of Marines came up, "I don't believe that you can do you Jedi mind trick on me." And I said, "This is what I'm going to do: I'm going to put you in this bill. It's going to feel like an evil in the world. You're going to come around the corner, and I'm going to have something that's Christmas in July, so good to be true that you're going to run at it even though you know you shouldn't run at it." And the guy said, "Now, now, you're never going to show it." Brian, you were there, you know exactly what I'm talking about. So Shelly, and she's a role player manager on this caper, she sets it up. So we had a guy with a .45 tucked in his waistband, you remember that? And the guy is talking to the other group. So here comes the Marines on their patrol. They come around the corner. The guy with the .45 looks at them, drops the gun, and turns off running. What did the point man do? They chase right after, and they turned the corner, and we ambushed the snot out of them. Yeah, here's the thing, here's the thing: these cops are sitting in a car, they're ready to go to a detail, they've got their body bunkers in the back, they got their GATS (firearms), everything is loaded, they got their armor-piercing. Boss gave them, "Hey, clear, this is our, you want, yeah." And they finally get to call that in their mind, they're dreading, but in their mind they're also going, "Damn, I hope I am the guy. Hope I get it." Yeah. And what do we do? We don't give ourselves a gift of time and distance. We race to the scene where Dorner, three-to-one odds, defense that you got the advantage five to one in urban. Dorner goes, "Here comes the next two cops," and he pulls out and he fires well-aimed rounds, high-volume. A well-aimed fire trumps a decision. Those cops are now on what mode, Brian? There at bang, there for, "Oh, in the dice." And they have to react. So here's my thing: from a former copper and from training all over the world, those two coppers, God bless them for doing their job every single day out there, but I would—not being on the scene, I would question their knowledge of advanced critical thinking, specifically when it comes to the gift of time and distance. What do you—and I—I'm interested, am I way off here? Do you feel it is?

And it affects—it affects even the most highly trained, highly experienced. Yes, you don't have these guys are heroes. Exactly, is that—and that's our whole point when we bring this stuff up to, it's that, you know, most these things, 99.99% of your situations you get in in law enforcement career are not worth losing your life over. Yes, at that one by chance situation where a guy's walking down the street just killing, you know, women, kids, left and right, that's worth your life maybe to run in there and...

Go, "I'm down." You got to slow time, decorate the field, yeah.

I met their—their—their amount of motion and their escape routes, right? I'll get that, get that stop stick ready. There's a whole bunch of things. But listen, you can't fault the cops because their chemistry told them, "Yes, we have Dorner's, that's him. Let's go." Or—or one of the cops might have said, "Hey, this can't be Dorner," whatever, right? Right, stop. Which is—which is most dangerous. I say both. I say they're on an equal plane that that spying on him, "But let's go check it out," is so denial can kill you, yes, just as much as boring an environment or in a titillating environment, yeah, just as much as, you know, in excess of caution can kill you. All right, so then about 20 minutes after that happened—this was an important time, like that, yes, you're right after, because it's right about 1:30 or it wasn't more than about 20 minutes after they shot at the officers in Corona, who's in Riverside, and he walked up and ambushed—ambushed a police car who was stopped at a traffic light. One of the officers died almost immediately, or right after the shooting, and one was rushed to a hospital. He survived, but was in critical condition at the time. For the service, yeah. So, so he literally 20 minutes after that—after that shooting of, "Hey, we think we got a possible sighting of Dorner," then they get shot at, "Okay, looks like it was Dorner." 20 minutes later, two police officers at a red—at a stoplight were—were ambushed and killed by them.

So let's—let's split things up, let's go to Dorner for just a second. Dorner, now deep in his Machiavellian, psychopathic, narcissistic rage—the triangle again, don't forget that triangle—is now on what we scientists call—and I'm a self-taught social scientist, so bite me if you can't take that—but he is what we're doing called the "happy head." Dorner now knows the cops are after him, they're right behind me. So every time he sees a car turn, every time he sees red headlights, in his mind, who is it, Brian? "Oh, it's cops." So now he's at this elevated level. So when he sees the next two cops, he tells himself, "Hey, here's two more guys that are looking for me." Now flip that coin right quick. Do you think for an instant, even with those radios calls coming in, that those cops were in the turn lane? They were going to make a turn. What was the driver thinking about? "Is traffic clear?" What was the passenger thinking about? "That burrito from El Charro's and the best male sauce that I've ever had in my life." Do you think that coppers are superhuman? If you do, stop it for a minute. They're just like us, they got to go potty, they need another cup of coffee, they got two jobs because the kids in a private school. Yeah. You think coppers are doing counter-surveillance? If they've been through our course, they have, but an average person—training changes behaviors. An average person doesn't go around saying, "I wonder why this guy's walking up to a police car." And what have we established that in police terminology is called the "window drop"? You pull up or you walk up to a police car to talk to him. So who's at a disadvantage? Dorner knows what's next, maybe what I'm trying to say. And again, he's got three to one or five to one odds against those coppers. Police officers out there, get D2 training. You're great at what you do, thanks for your sacrifice, thanks for what you're doing. When they say there's no training budget, find a new agency or go to the training officer, go to your mayor and say, "This gift of time and distance, uh-uh. And and in addition to the gift of time and distance, the advanced critical thinking will save lives." They could have boxed Dorner in, they could have done a bunch of stuff. Not going to play armchair quarterbacks, but cops don't need to die because we neglect...

Right, right. And so, so that happens, you know, middle of night, by 1:30 in the morning. And then he—he takes off from there. So this night, although is over in terms of what Dorner does, because of the situation that he's created, there's another shooting not involving Dorner directly because of him. So at about 5:30 in the morning, or slightly before, right around 5:00, I believe in—who's still dark? It's February, so it's still dark out at that time. Yeah, you had a couple Los Angeles police detectives came or observed a vehicle similar to Dorner, right? Of what—very similar make and model of what he was driving, right? So I believe they were sitting at a deer—they're on a protective detail, I think at the time. I don't—I don't exactly what it was. They're an active detail outside of a, you know, an officer's house and they see a vehicle coming up similar to Dorner's. It was one of the people that was named on the hit list. They're in a position to observe that street and they exit from the highway.

Here's the thing. Go to the lessons learned that I wrote about and take a look at the pictures of the cars. I don't think they're even remotely similar, but that's called confirmation bias. Yep. And we teach confirmation bias, you and I, all the time. Our instructors are out there. You see what you want to see. When you see that coming up and and those coppers did nothing wrong, even though they got censured, even though those coppers in the Torrance County, or the Torrance PD coppers, had to answer for this wrongful shooting. In their mind, it was cognitively close enough and fit a prototypical match that they had created with their—their fear or training or information that they'd given. I don't care about all that, but I do care that it occurred, and when that car rolled up, guess what, Brian? And there was him, it was game on.

So what happened was it was two women who were delivering newspapers in the early morning hours, driving her out there. If anyone's seen usually someone driving around delivering newspapers, a lot of times they don't have their headlights on, right? It's true.

Absolutely.

I don't even get out of their vehicle, they just do it from there, right? And they're kind of in their set route that they do. So just like Greg was talking about, this is not that situation where these police officers, what are they doing? All right, police officers were just killed that evening. They're on a manhunt for this guy Christopher Dorner. Dorner is—chemistry is different. Yes, one of the people I want to kill is sitting in the house behind me that I'm protecting right now, and I want to do the right thing. Here it comes, just like Greg said, if it's cognitively close enough, your brain says, "Boom, that's it." That's no different, look it up, than the other lessons learned we wrote on Amadou Diallo, right? That's the same way as Brian, brilliant. And you know, once that—once those chain of events start coming and I think I see something, I see what I want to believe, right? I see what I want to do.

Diallo died because his physiological gesture was close enough the cops expected, and they killed him. Now here's the thing: due process, coppers, all of you know it, you all know the law, due process. Okay, you do not have the right to escalate that force to the level of lethal force. Title 442, Section 1983 of the U.S. Code, bought in—in addition, go down through Tennessee versus Garner, any of the other case law, you can't just make this quantum leap of logic and start shooting it out before you see the threat. So at that point you would have had to say, "I was in fear because this person accelerated towards me. I was in fear because I saw the glint and it appeared to be a weapon, and it was coming up. I heard gunshots and smelled cordite." Brian, did any of that happen?

No, none of it.

So what filled in all that granularity? Where did the rigor come from in those perceptions? It was falsely given to you. Yes, by your human processing system. So am I saying that your eyes and your brain can tell you a lie? Absolutely. Worse witnesses in the world are eyeball witnesses many times.

Yeah, absolutely. And people forget that. It's like people, I think they do. I always tell people, "Look, I have the worst memory in the world." My memory's no better or worse than anyone else's, I just realize how bad it is and I think you know that it's porous, it's not good, it you fill in details, major muscle movements, you'll—you'll remember a little bit, but when you're talking about details, even if it's wrong, remember...

Absolutely. No.

So that in that to go to this again of how powerful that is. They weren't the only police officers who did that that evening. Just—just minutes later, minutes later, 15, 20 minutes later, there's another officer-involved shooting. Torrance, same thing, "Hey, that vehicle looks like Dorner's," and they open up a—I think he pitted the vehicle or rammed the vehicle. Shots were fired. He T-boned it. And I don't think there were any injuries or no serious injuries.

So the criminal in this case, who wasn't—was a dude that was going surfing before he had to go to work. Sorry, I don't remember your name, pal. Yeah, but again, same two agencies, Torrance and L.A. And and we know L.A. coppers and county and and PD. Yeah, no Torrance PD guys. We train up and down California. And listen, I'm not trying to give anybody a black eye as much as Dorner's glass was full, your glass is full. You suffered from OBE: Overcome By Events, Overcome By Emotions. And that doesn't mean that you couldn't function, that means that you were functioning at such a high level that the information coming in your brain had concluded and juiced, and you acted. That's a function of training. Training can teach you to slow time down. And training—Harrison, "Hey, look up Harrison's, slow the ball down," or whatever it is. We got to meet him and train with him a couple of times. There's a distance from the pitcher's mound to the to the batter, and cognitively you—you can't make that decision, make it. That's patterns in the world, slow the game down mentally, and fire off when things are cognitively close enough. That's what you did. So once you understand it, once you name it, Brian, you can find out how to train against it. And it's not apathy, it's the opposite. It's being so hyper-vigilant that your brain concluded that something is likely in it, that's why the escalated force.

It's important to know too, when—when those officers think—thought they saw Dorner's truck, that that's who they thought they saw. When—when the officers who just knew Diallo thought that they were being shot at and he had a gun in his hand, they saw a gun. They're not lying. Their brain said, "Close enough, that wallet that he's holding, nope, that's a gun." Because it's dimly lit and I'm expecting that. They can pass a polygraph.

Absolutely, because their operation biases is that's that powerful.

And you could go back and read up on those officers' reactions at that scene, especially the Diallo shooting, when they realized it wasn't, they were completely out of their minds. They had no understanding of what just occurred because they were so overwhelmed going, "No, I saw it, it was a gun. I saw a gun!" And he's not lying.

So it's—let's protract that out to this information age that's instant information, 24 hours a day, feeding the average jamoke that's sitting on their couch, man or female or whatever else who identify as. Here's the thing, there was a shooting in Colorado just a day or two ago, and the coppers thought that the right move was to shoot the person in the back because the threat that he posed to the public as an armed person that was wanted for a felony warrant and some other information. Now that cop's choice at that time and at that place, putting yourself in his shoes, you didn't see it, smell it, feel it, taste it. You didn't know all the other information that he knew. You saw an iPad or iPhone video that lasted 11 seconds and drew your opinion that all law enforcement is ____ and that officer should be fired. And I apologize for my language, I'm amped up only because I think you need to go out and educate yourself, General Public (GP), I'll call you from now on. I think you should understand that before you cast that net and say all of these things were wrong. I'm not saying that these coppers were wrong, they saw what they thought they did. I'm saying training would have made them better, quo the kind of cop that shot that guy in the back, he may have been fully justified once you reached it. Yeah, thanks.

A threshold where you can use lethal force, it doesn't drop a safe on the guy. Yeah, I'm just saying. So quick to judge without the facts, right? And not just general public, we do that military, we do to—do that. Well, you go, you watch that video, "Oh, look at this idiot, I would never do that." Yeah, turns out science says you would actually. So then that's repeated throughout case after case after case, you know, it's just that—that why do you know, especially like you get in those pursuits and what happens when it all comes the end and everyone's out of their vehicle or their—there's lights and sirens are still blaring and those guys don't even notice what's going on, right?

You did, man. You know you're making it worse right now with that big loud siren that you can't ever get, but you don't know it. Your brain, I'm in an on-again-off-again foot pursuit, fresh pursuit with a B&E (Breaking and Entering) boy. B&E to me is like a rape. Your home is your castle, anybody that violates that is like prom night with your sister, your daughter to me. I hate that stuff. So the problem is I got the burglaries out of sync, and the guy that I'm chasing is going through a couple that he did, to a couple that he—that he just did recently, to a couple of older ones, trying to get away from me because it's shift change. I'm not getting the kind of support that I need. So I come up to this factory and I notice that the window's out in the front, just enough for this guy to get in and escape out the back of the factory. Ain't going to stop there. So I pull out my Remington expandable baton, I flawed that window out. I was swinging like the flyer, do you get what I'm trying to say? No, I'm vlogging and flogging and flogging, and I grab some stuff and I set it up and I step on the ledge because it's about four foot up and it's a big window, it's got to be a six-foot by four-foot panel, and there's a whole bunch of them in the front of this business. And glass is crashing and everything else. All of a sudden, the office right in front of me, the door opens and this guy looks at me and I go, "Freeze!" I mean, man, ready to go. And the guy goes, "Jesus, pal, what are you doing?" And I go, "Well, who are you?" And he goes, "Well, this is my factory, and open for business." So when he—we're behind him, all the the pod bay doors are open and the people are loading stuff and everything else. And he goes, "Looks like somebody threw a rock through the window," because I was on this foot chase and I'm not going to let this guy go. It was close enough. And I—I can't remember how much it was, I think I paid $1,800 for this guy's windows. Yeah, because it was close enough, buddy. So for those people out there going, "Well, you know, you made mistakes too." I made mistakes my entire—yeah, we all have. That's why I'm here. I would, yeah. Exactly. You don't make the same mistakes I did. Confirmation bias will fool you, and you must learn to slow down time and distance, just like I did.

Well, so we'll continue on. So, you know, that was the—the, you know, that was on the, I think, E—yeah, we're—we're at this. Okay, so what—what's important to remember is on the also on the 7th at about noon, right around noon that day, is when they found burning remains of Dorner's vehicle on some remote trail right near Big Bear Lake up in the San Bernardino Mountains, right? So anyway, that's just straight east of L.A. Actually spent part of my honeymoon there. It's an hour and a half drive from where I'm at.

Love Big Bear. This morning when I was having my cup of coffee, I was assured it before I brought it up here, but I'm not joking, we bought one thing when we were there that had "Big Bear" on a coffee mug. And I did, by pure chance, didn't even pay attention till I picked it up and looked at it and went, "Holy ____," pardon my language, but but I'm drinking the Big Bear coffee mug when today when we're doing Dorner. So I freaked out. This answer, string theory, baby, that's theory, that's M-theory. So here, a quick shout-out to that, Brian, do you believe that Dorner was such in the happy head that he wasn't evidence of—where my—my take on this is no. My take on this is that the boat was left as a message, "I'm not going this way, I'm going that way." I think the car, he was completely evidence aware, and I think at that point that he destroyed to start to try to—to give himself time by destroying the car so he could jack another car. And so I don't think he's a stupid guy, he designed exactly what he was doing. Is a decent level of organization, right? Yes. So that all that he...

Education. Yeah. A level of they found weapons and stuff in that car or other ammo like they—I mean, he went behind that, you remember when he went behind the, and I don't remember what kind of a store it was, it's Newman, yeah, what kind of store it was, but that store video is worthy of him and astronomy, tried to burn that stuff in the guns there.

So I think he's evidence aware, and I think what it is is that he wants the ruse to work. And here we are in California, and even though Dorner went on this nine-day caper, that's not the only homicide that L.A. was having during that time. He's not the only serial killer that was out. Do you get it? We need to remember that. Yeah, you can't just know exactly all of these cities, all these towns had all their normal course of business going on that they had to deal with and now they have to do this guy.

And that speaks to how you brought up being evidence aware. I think that one obviously speaks to your organization level, but that also speaks to how do I deal with this criminal? What are his likely moves next? So now I have someone whose evidence aware, so they have a planning process involved, they have some level of organization, so they likely have a plan if any police officer ever interacts with them, if they are ever seen by a police officers, and that should raise your awareness.

But also exactly what you just said, Brian, because I think you're on to something. What about Dorner's likely sampling of his environment by, "Hey, where are the cops in my investigation? What are they up to?" Do you think he ever watched CNN? Do you think he ever—I think he's listened to—to it all the time. And coppers and prosecutors and judges and everybody else out there, limit your comms because those comms, news media that become public, can only help the bad guy. The bad guy now knows, and Dorner says, "Well, I'm going to—I'm going to drop these weapons in this ammo and like the sky on fire because they're no use to me. I know I have to go to my plan B or my plan C." And every criminal has a plan B. Copper might not have a plan B, right on up behind that car. That criminal's got a plan B, okay? So think about that. That was the 7th where they found his burned out car up in Big Bear. So now they've got this command post set up in the area, they've got several hundred, you know, state, local, federal agencies involved in this.

I'm helping the entire state. This guy's mobile, and nobody's anything that the FBI was involved everything.

Well, I mean, that so, units, ground units, yep. So, and also this is winter in Big Bear, so there's, you know, fresh snow falling. So now that it's covering his tracks, but that'll also give you new tracks. So that—so this is going on for a few days, and then to the point where they actually kind of pulled a lot of the people off of the search and off of the area because they thought he was no longer in the area. Yeah. So because it's none of the profile pieces fit. He didn't jack another car, he didn't have another shootout with the coppers. So you're exactly right.

Brian said, when it didn't fit, they lowered their level of interest in that AO (Area of Operations) without thinking, "Wait a minute, this might be part of his..."

Which I think speaks to his organization level as well. Because he had a plan for this, he had—he was—he's done it for a couple of days earlier, why wouldn't you do it now? So he was set for a few days, and he definitely didn't leave that area. Because it wasn't until now, February 12th, so so remember that's—that's five days after the—the shootings in the Los Angeles area, so five days and five days after they found his vehicle. Right, uh, they so he—they and again, this speaks to there's a search—this is obviously not an easy job. They were, because on the 12th, they actually had Mexican police raid a hotel in Tijuana because they were getting tips. Remember, you got to follow all leads, got everything, you can't just say that's unlikely and, "Yeah, do it." Yeah, yeah. Stay at hundreds of leads that they had to follow up. So in no way is the Sebastian anyone involved in this, not a bit. And Brian, right there's a—let me ask you this question, folks, you don't know the definition of terrorism. Homework, go look it up. Yeah, so some people would argue that—that Dorner wasn't a terrorist. Brian, if I make you scramble for a hoax AED (Automated External Defibrillator), yes, but yet you have to put out all of your resources. Yeah, okay. Are you not spending time and money and resources pushing people? So he was costing money. Oh yeah. And and reaching his agenda, do you understand? So his end state was being satisfied by the motions that he was doing, and the coppers are just trying to spin fast.

They had, I think that people put together up to a million dollar reward for his—any information led to his capture. I mean, there's and but there's obvious a lot of agencies, a lot of coordination, a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of resources involved. They did a great job. Overall, they did an incredible job.

There's a few cracks, and we have to put the joint compound in there.

Exactly. So on February 12th, I believe it's midday, the San Bernardino County Sheriff's, they get a report of a home invasion and slash carjacking, I guess, of this—of the truck and at a home in that area of the Big Bear area. And now things are happening really fast.

Yes. Now even on coppers, but law enforcement, Forest Patrol, because arts and wildlife guides and stuff that are so dating desert.

So then, and this is important, I know we've worked with a Fish and Game, Game Ward—some incredible people, Parks and Wildlife folks, who are either a lot of times state or federal law enforcement, and their stories, their stories trump some of the best dope cops I've met in terms of what they've done with very few people. So they're people don't realize it's not just—there's actually a great guy, I forget his name, guy out here wrote a book about it, he was Fish and Game for state of California and he was going on about—about all the marijuana fields out here that he's going in. So now he's fighting the cartel and he's like writing a, you know, a ticket for fishing one day and then getting in a gunfight with the cartel the next.

Exactly.

But anyway, so reason why I bring that up is because it was a Fish and Game officers I know were the first to spot his vehicle. They recognized Dorner. He doesn't waste any time, "We've got you all right now." He's getting at the bridle right away. He forced to defend themselves and shoot back. Exactly. But—but again, where's his mindset, "Oh yeah, dammit, they're on to me." You didn't. So again, predict—shot them, killed another officer and wounded another one in that shootout. And then he held up in that home for a while. They tried to attempt to contact him, he wouldn't come out, nothing. I think they waited out for a little bit and then later that evening, they launched her—early evening, launched tear gas into the house, which—which of course happens a lot of times, started a fire in the home, happens sometimes. Well, they either the tear gas started the fire or someone started the fire, and then they heard a single shot come from inside the home. They had to wait a while, I think, before they went in. It wasn't even till the next day. So I think all that source credits all if the house is on fire and he's had ammo, which we all know he had ammo, you're going to have some cook-offs. So hearing a single shot that somebody right now four corners of the document and it doesn't sound realistic, it does fit the forensic pathology that says that. Yeah. Yeah, the next day.

Yes. The next day, a little bit and say that after that shootout it was found that he had kidnapped a couple of people and he tied them up, yeah, and didn't kill them. And that was a car that he was in during the—that was a—that was the—why is that important? It fits his profile exactly. And he only kills when he has to kill. The reason they didn't want to kill those folks is he didn't want to be found out, so he gave himself the gift of time and distance. So he didn't kill them and pulled away in their vehicle. The other thing is they weren't his designated target. It's like, you know, Al-Qaeda hidden in a fuel facility. I would understand the Houthis blowing up a Saudi oil field. I would understand. But some random killing doesn't make sense because it doesn't feed the beast. It doesn't get me where I want to go. So now the other thing is that—that sometimes we buy into this thing, for example, news reports say, "Well, they put a smoke device in there that was just like the Branch Davidian compound and burnt it." It doesn't, yeah, okay. One of these quantum leaps of logic, and yeah, it is true and Brian, you know this from being in the field. Iraq and Afghanistan, I saw it myself, sometimes when you put a smoke device, HD white, it'll burn the place down. So if you use the CN gas canister, it's got a fuse. You've got a chance that it's going to burn. Hell, how many ranges they burn down and everybody is—don't buy into stuff that you don't know. It's likely that they—first of all, I'll guarantee that nobody at that scene said, "Let's burn this house down on top of the guy." That's just ridiculous, scurrilous thinking. Second thing is when they did the smoke, they wanted—nobody wants to kill anybody, and specifically good coppers, they don't want to see the suspect dead. They want to see the suspect stand trial, they want to hear his message. But Dorner already said his message. So you're showing up for a suicide. You should have known that at that point when you did. Yes, thank you. You might as well have sat around and waited for that lone gunshot because he already told you, and he told you and he showed you, and people constantly teach us how to treat them.

Yeah, I think that that's the point of human behavior profiling. Okay, so after the fact, when we want to, you know, put someone into a profile based on their psychology, you know, I always go back to the Mindhunter stuff, which I loved watching those shows and those documentaries, it's great, entertaining. But—but this is what human behavior profiling is, it's a date—you're that officer right there on the ground, you're that tank commander going, "Based on what we know of him, what is the likely outcome he's going to do next? What secret..."

And like some alphabet agents, yeah. That is 100% when—when they learn profile after the guy's been captured. Yeah, exactly.

Of course. Really? Your profile didn't lead to his arrest. Cop work on the ground, that lots of your...

And and that's what it is. So it's that good investigative work, whether you are law enforcement or not, whatever your situation is, it's just you as a person, as a citizen, can go, "What's this? What's likely going to happen next?" And you have to go with artifacts and evidence to support a reasonable conclusion.

What has he done so far? And what is that therefore—what is that pattern recognition?

Yeah, that's what you just said. And the analysis would be, "What's he going to do next? Does it fit an ML (Most Likely) or an MD (Most Dangerous)?" And even in a dangerous incident where he's killing people, it can still fit an ML and help you predict his next move. I'll give you a point that you're not going to find in—you can search and search and search, and remember they scrub history, they rewrite history, and not talking about like looking at a UFO. I'm talking about when this first came out, the coppers that were on the scene followed those snow tracks to a house. They knocked on the door, nobody answered, and they assumed that the other coppers that were there had had left those tracks in the snow. And that was actually Dorner's track. Yep. And that was the house they came back to and that's where Dorner shot himself. Why am I saying this? Listen, humans re-plan behavior. Human behavior and human performance. You can't function at that high level for nine days searching for this guy who's killing people like it's free and not be overcome by emotions or overwhelmed by events. So on the ground you need to be trained to do this. You need to walk up to your boss and go, "Hey, this might be nothing, but there are footprints around that house over there." And then if somebody comes up and goes, "That's probably so-and-so," tell them to step back again and go, "Boss, I saw footprints, let's account for them because if we don't, Brian, what happens is..."

Right. And everybody's word. And in court, you can't even testify today, it's called hearsay objection, your honor. Clear on those scene, those cops' instincts were—were on to something, and somebody or themselves use that denial and said, "Now, couldn't be. There's no way that guy's in this house." That's how those cops got shot early on when they tried to stop them right where they said the BOLO was. And that's how these cops overlooked the key piece of evidence in the calendar case. When you fail to take into account the situation and say maybe, Ryan, you do it all the time when you give the talk about outside of the box thinking and then you talk about lasers and flashlights. You say sometimes—and I remember you saying this—sometimes that you have to put these glasses on, look in the mirror, and sometimes you have to shine the flashlight or the laser on you. Yeah, and that's what they didn't do at the scene, and that comes with training, Brian.

No, and it's a—I think a good thing to bring up right here too is, is, "Okay, well, he's saying this and he did this, and he's saying this and he did this, you know what. How do I tell when—" because we get this a lot, and, you know, we fail to notice this for denial and all that stuff you brought up is that, you know what, this guy put—put it out there to the world who he was going after, you know what he wanted to do. We've seen other shooters do this, but—but sometimes people just do that, right? They—they fire off no one listen and you always say, "Hey, you know, everyone, most people just want their say, not to wear their way." Dorner wanted his way, Cho wanted his way, Elliot Rodger wanted his way.

What's the difference, my brother? No, the difference, my brother, is the demonstration of intent. If it's just talk and the talk doesn't have a specific—go back to suicide. Now, you folks that are listening, if you want to talk about suicide prevention, if I now not only have the ideation or the fascination and I'm talking about it, and then when I'm talking to I say, "I should do something like this," and I've got the means, do you get what I'm trying to say? Now we're on to something. Okay? Because everybody said, "I'd just kill myself." That's different than me going through these steps and actually having a plan, rehearsing the plan, and talk about, "These are the means that I have ready." Dorner did all of that. He said, "Here's my manifesto. Here's the coin, Anderson Cooper. Here's what I'm going to—I'm warning you people, I'm going to come back and do it right." It's the same thing that we haven't learned from firing somebody on Friday and not having a restraining order following them outside their car or letting them go to their car and come back in. We repeat the same behaviors because of training. We're falling for the education and not conducting the training in the practical application. Brian, only training changes behavior.

No, I think that's a—that's a—that's a good—good point to kind of kind of wrap it up and bring it in for a landing. So, you know, everything we just talked about, we broke down one Dorner case for those of you familiar with it or not familiar with it, you know, this is how we look at it, right? So I put some things in there for everyone here that we wouldn't normally talk about, that we don't usually care about, right? Things like what their motive is or what certain reports are, because it's all about their behavior, what they're demonstrating, what they're trying to tell you, all right? And it's also about human performance, all right? Human cognitive performance on Dorner's side, on you or the law enforcement side, on you as a citizen, right? So so this is how you break down that behavior, and this is how you understand behavioral profiling, right? Versus just, "Well, yes, he like because you did start off with, 'Well, he's a narcissistic psychopath.'" This, hey, that's—that's and that's great information two for for categorization purposes, for articulation purposes, but but I don't need to know that. No, no that, out of duty.

Yeah, so here's the thing, Brian, real quick, and I know I know we're at the end, where the logical endpoint here. Listen, I read sites all the time, and I listen to what people say, and they're talking about, "Oh, the scar tissue and the damage and you had an abused childhood," yet all that other stuff. Listen, folks, what we're trying to do is give you the 30,000-foot view so when we laser focus down on this or any case, we can give you an informed opinion on what we think is going to happen next. If the bomb-maker did this, he's going to do these. If the sniper did this, he's going to do these. And if the suspect did that, that's called predictive analysis, and we're the only people in the world that are willing to come on the radio, into the air, and share that with you because we know that we're right many, many more times than we're wrong because we use science, Brian.

The difference is we need science. It's to—it's stick to the science, stick to their behavior and what they're doing, not what you think. Don't let all it's one way, the only emotions, don't—don't, you know, come to unreasonable conclusions without looking at, "Well, what am I'm—you know, what if it—what if—what if what I think isn't what's actually happening?" And sometimes it can be that simple.

That's why we call it the most likely and most dangerous course. Exactly.

So so I think that's it. So hopefully everyone got a good taste of how we break down some of these cases, what we look at. We can certainly do more if you want to. I would suggest going to the website, Arcadiacognerada.com. That's A.R.C.A.D.I.A.C.O.G.N.E.R.A.D.A.com. Go there, they all have links up to the YouTube videos, but yeah, that's read it seriously.

For our folks listening, Brian, how long if we're going to do a tabletop on this, how long could we spread Dorner around?

We could do days. Do we do days? They read that in what, seven minutes? Yeah, we could do a five-day course on human behavior, it's not during one case. So so here—here's the thing with that. You can go to the website, check out the lessons learned, or you can, if anyone has like a Medium account or they read articles and stuff on there, same thing, Arcadiacognerada on there, we post all of our stuff on that site as well. But you can read the lessons learned. So we just took one lessons learned of the 25 or so that are on there and just—just to talk about it. So you guys can get some more information, you can see the photos, it gets a little bit more. Also, if you guys want to—want to watch, go to The Human Behavior Podcast YouTube channel, you can watch it, it's a little bit more interact. I'm going to try and throw some of the clips up there and some—some additions and is a video, so it gets a little bit more interactive.

And Brian uses an avatar for me, so you don't have to think about doing that, just replacing your video with someone else. But keep the automatically, everybody, and hey, it's Kathy Bates, I love her glasses, so sorry. Check those out on there. If you enjoyed it, please, folks, subscribe to the YouTube channel, subscribe on here, tell your friends about it. We'll get through this together, that's what they're about. Let's start that conversation. And once again, just reach out to us, you can find us on there with all the links if you have, "Hey man, like I really was always curious about this," because I get texts from my buddies and stuff going, "Hey, this was great, what about this?" And like, "Man, just comment down there," because other exactly knowing human behavior, other people are thinking the same thing complaints. So so just go ahead and put it out there and then everyone will go, "Yeah, I was wondering about that too." So so we'll cover whatever topics of interest people have. So sorry, just just two quick things, Brian, for me. Let's not forget Doran L. Cossette and—and the loss of a Laramie officer. And and one thing not to make light of Brian's financial situation, let's endeavor to chip in and buy him a photo or something for this room he's in. I know it's square, it's just blank wall. So it's like talking to you, man, it's vanilla. The lights, the lights are on but I don't think anyone so good sense, but we're all a little afraid now. All right, thanks everyone for listening. Everybody, please tune in for more. Stay safe out there and contact us if you have any information. Don't forget, training changes behavior.

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